New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #6

That is because the Climber you mentioned ain’t no rigger!

Lori Milas wrote: Might have been a public duty to weigh in on the safety of the belay.  I, personally, would feel defensive and hurt/angry if this much advice was offered, when I hadn't asked for it.  "Feel defensive and hurt/angry if this much advice was offered."  

Oh not me, I fully acknowledge that I don't know it all.  After some consideration I may argue the point with you, but I will always listen and think about what others are saying.  

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

That is because the Climber you mentioned ain’t no rigger!

Nice setup, what where the results?  PS, thanks for going through the effort.

Lori Milas wrote: I don't have a horse in this race, but I do have an uncomfortable feeling to share.  Short of life/death issues, I try not to offer advice, unless specifically asked.  In fact, in almost any circumstance in which I am considering offering my opinion... I try to first discern if that person has ever shown an interest in my opinion.  Usually they have NOT.  (This does not include offering encouragement, support, kudos, tips if asked, and general interest in others).  

It might not have hurt to ask dragons if she wanted a critique and advice.  If yes... then pile on! (nicely???)  

This might qualify as 'life/death' issue.  Might have been a public duty to weigh in on the safety of the belay.  I, personally, would feel defensive and hurt/angry if this much advice was offered, when I hadn't asked for it.  

Related... (not the same exactly)... I've been interested in when and how a professional like Bob G. offers his opinion.  I've seen him show me where someone else was engaging in dangerous activity... but not walk up and tell the person they are putting him/herself in danger.  I have seen him watch a couple flounder to find a route... and he'll keep his mouth shut.  However, the minute they ASK... he tells everything he can.  He also wont' shout beta until or when a person asks for it.  

On the other hand, he WILL tell anyone with a dog that they need to get the dog out of the park.  And anyone dropping garbage... or crunching over delicate foilage... he'll call them out on that.  I don't know why I brought that up... more popcorn, I guess.  

( I believe I just gave unsolicited advice...)

I don't think either Constantine and I were mean or derogatory, just concerned and matter-of-fact.  And I'm not sure anyone is well-served if the only advice it is ok to give is encouragement, support, kudos, etc.   

It is always a delicate question whether you should try to keep people from getting injured, which is the issue here.  I just about never walk up to someone at the crag and say anything, unless, as you say, death seems a real and present danger. But it is different when someone posts a record of their activities on a forum, because those activities become a public event that others can imitate, and at that point you are addressing not only the original poster but also all the others who might be inclined to do something similar.  

I don't like making people uncomfortable, but I think the comments were called for in this case.  Constantine and I have been around the block enough times to see the consequences of this type of situation.  I didn't comment until Constantine's advice was rejected on the grounds that the belayer was suitably heavy, at which point I took the time and effort to explain in detail what the overlooked issues are.  Should we really just walk away?  Is that somehow more caring?

I sincerely hope that my comments are not taken as being too harsh. But, as someone who is not only over 50, but with nearly 50 years of climbing under my belt, I felt it important to reaffirm what Jeff had observed - in response to what appears to have been an invitation to render an opinion.

Just an observation... not saying I’m right. Good topic though—since I’ve often wondered what goes so terribly wrong in some of these forums and they shut down entirely.

A hard lesson for me as a parent of adult kids is to shut up... and KEEP shutting up, unless I’m asked. Even if I’m right. Even if they really need my expert input. They don’t... so I’ve gone back to “catch them doing something good”... that thing you do with five year olds.

I realize we’re not parenting kids here and there is a WEALTH of expertise, which is a gift in a public forum.You see a problem—you’re kind enough to say it. 

Some sports today, up to grade 19 today...

Dallas -that was a very funny post! I look forward to climbing with you, whenever and wherever. I do know that it is possible to fall at any point in climbing - we're not sitting at home knitting mittens    If one starts the climb with a stick clip, why not bring the stick clip up with you (which I have done, once, much to my embarrassment). But I value my neck more than my ego. If one wants to be as safe as possible, one shouldn't climb (or drive, as people on MP will point out). What are the limits? Not everyone stick clips. Some of us stick clip some of the time. Some do it all the time. We are in the middle.

I was also wondering about a bolt pulling out due to the angle... I'd never heard of this before, but doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Has anyone ever heard of this happening? I want to emphasize that there would be no large forces in a fall, here. The climb is not even vertical; it would be a sliding fall, unless I made an effort to jump off the wall, which I'm fairly sure would not have happened.

Randy - "The purpose of a belay, even on a route that may be easy for that climber, is that they "might" fall and the rope is supposed to stop the fall." I agree with you 100%.

rgold - 1) When I look at this again, I think the worst part is when I clip the 2nd bolt at 3:23. I'm in a pretty good position here, but it's a big reach for me. If I fell right then it would not have been pleasant (although I did not remotely feel that would happen, I realize it could have). 2) "You are forced to drag up the extra weight of that horizontal piece" I do sometimes have problems with rope drag, but this was not an issue on this climb. If I'd felt rope drag, I would have requested that my belayer move. 3) "3. All that extra rope means a lot more rope stretch if the leader falls.  This is a potential problem on a slabby route like the one pictured." I thought this would be less of a danger on low angle slab like this? The rope won't stretch as much if the fall is not fully weighted?

Is everyone really sure that I could've fallen 6 feet here? It just seems hard to believe, given the angle of the route. Makes me want to do a drop test on one of those bolts.

Tim - "you were clearly not comfortable on that climb" - oh snap, lol! it was an onsight, and first day leading of the season, so for sure I wasn't super comfortable. Onsight leading definitely puts me on edge, but is also hugely rewarding. In fact, I'm still not really comfortable leading anything, ever, even after years of doing so. Here I am leading a 5.2 earlier in the day. To be fair, I didn't know the grade before I led it   

Lori, "I, personally, would feel defensive and hurt/angry if this much advice was offered, when I hadn't asked for it." Why?  I do not feel defensive, hurt, or angry. I am very happy at the quality of the discussion. I geek out on stuff like this.

No one needs to apologize for anything they wrote, here. I like this discussion. It is entertaining, and also useful and instructive.

dragons wrote:
... No one needs to apologize for anything they wrote, here...

I apologize that I don't know what the issue is, limited technology and coverage. I'm Just having fun climbing...

For me, it is hard to decide what do in this situation, but given the discussion and Dragons' amazing ability to accept and process comments that so many would be defensive toward, I'll say something more.

If that were not your bf belaying you, I would tell you to not climb with them again unless they learn how to belay more effectively.  In the second video, he completely lets go of the rope (albeit for very brief times) at least 4 times (before he changes position and obscures his hands).  Yes, he is using a gri-gri and people often do let go with the brake hand while using an assisted belay device, but that does not make it proper technique.

More worrisome, the slack in the rope is beyond unacceptable and ranges into dangerous.  At one point, the entire rope between him and the base of the cliff is lying on the ground.  Please have someone teach your bf how to properly belay.  I am sure he is a wonderful person and it is great that you guys climb together all the time, but his belay technique is putting you in serious danger.

We want you unhurt, so we can enjoy more videos from you.  Really.

TS

This discussion on belaying... all the input from so many on such an important matter, has me also thinking about how one learns to climb, or how one would even know when technique is lacking... when danger lurks.  I have some experience now watching people who are right on the edge...but I would be, too, without a lot of help.  

I am troubled by my own climbing this week (and yes, I am asking for advice).  Even though most of my partners are guides still .... and I always want to apologize for this... there is a huge difference in what I can climb, and what I can enjoy, depending upon who I am with.  I haven't seen Bob this trip and I've done a lot of floundering.  I have had a lot of fun, and enjoyed climbing... but it certainly doesn't compare to the routes I do with Bob.  Why is that?  I really never meant to become dependent...

I've said that it's not a lot of fun climbing with Bob.  What I meant is... there's not a lot of play when we're out.  He eyes me, marks a route, and watches me close.  If there is much floundering, we are done with that route.  He's pretty chill... maybe clinical.  We take a lot of sandwich breaks. But man... I get up those routes!  I also don't come home sunburnt, over tired, or banged up.  If it's sunny, we are in the shade... if it's cold, we are in the lone sunny spot.  He's understated, I guess.... yet I come back and look at the routes, and realize we did some amazing things.  On those same outings with a friend, it may not go so well.  (I want it to be the same!)

Maybe this is a bit of reverse ego... this being a lifestyle/sport that really flourished under the dirtbag culture but today I still don't know how I would get the climbing job done without a lot of guidance.  It has meant, essentially, to clear out every other obligation in my life, take whatever 'retirement' I could muster... forgo the cruises and whatever else people expect to do (but I never wanted to do anyway)... and do this.  This trip would not be so fun if I were left to my own devices.  (I can say the same thing for indoor climbing now... )

One big  victory this week was hanging out at the top of a route, setting anchor, trekking in my own stuff.... feeling pretty competent both climbing and rigging (this one specific climb.   )  That 'ease' is starting to happen... maybe I'm impatient.  

Major Slack in the system/ground like this Tim?

Tim Schafstall wrote: For me, it is hard to decide what do in this situation, but given the discussion and Dragons' amazing ability to accept and process comments that so many would be defensive toward, I'll say something more.

If that were not your bf belaying you, I would tell you to not climb with them again unless they learn how to belay more effectively.  In the second video, he completely lets go of the rope (albeit for very brief times) at least 4 times (before he changes position and obscures his hands).  Yes, he is using a gri-gri and people often do let go with the brake hand while using an assisted belay device, but that does not make it proper technique.

More worrisome, the slack in the rope is beyond unacceptable and ranges into dangerous.  At one point, the entire rope between him and the base of the cliff is lying on the ground.  Please have someone teach your bf how to properly belay.  I am sure he is a wonderful person and it is great that you guys climb together all the time, but his belay technique is putting you in serious danger.

We want you unhurt, so we can enjoy more videos from you.  Really.

TS

Hey Tim, Can you say where he let go of the brake hand specifically? I want to understand what you mean because I couldn't see that.

The "Innocent Prairie Dog" video shows him belaying really badly, I agree. Normally he doesn't belay like this, so far as I know (I will do more videotaping, and we're discussing this). I'm not concerned when I see it here, because in my view, it is not a route. It's just a way to hike up to the top or to practice leading. He spotted me at the bottom which was all I wanted, because it's vertical, but the route is like stair climbing. If you were there I think you'd agree there's no reason for bolts on this route. IIRC I was laughing constantly on this and telling him that I couldn't believe it was bolted. The FA says it's there for easy access to set up top ropes.

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

Major Slack in the system/ground like this Tim?

Yes slack, except the climber had not yet started climbing and no gear was placed yet (the climber was actually taking the photo).  Climber was 10-12 feet up on top of a boulder where the climb starts.  Come on Jeff, I know you can find a pic where I WAS really doing something not quite right.  I'm sure they exist.

I'd like to see Tim and Jeff duke it out in an old guy cage match to determine who's right about climbing once and for all......

Seriously........

Cage fight over how to belay properly?

Awesome sauce.

John Barritt wrote: I'd like to see Tim and Jeff duke it out in an old guy cage match to determine who's right about climbing once and for all......

Seriously........

I don't recall Jeff and I ever having a disagreement on what is "right" (or about anything, for that matter).  I think Jeff is pretty much spot on with advice.  I think he was just having a little fun at my expense.  No harm done.  I'm too old for cage matches anyway.

Yes Tim,  just having a little fun with my morning coffee! ;)

Lori Milas wrote: This discussion on belaying... all the input from so many on such an important matter, has me also thinking about how one learns to climb, or how one would even know when technique is lacking... when danger lurks.  I have some experience now watching people who are right on the edge...but I would be, too, without a lot of help.  

I am troubled by my own climbing this week (and yes, I am asking for advice).  Even though most of my partners are guides still .... and I always want to apologize for this... there is a huge difference in what I can climb, and what I can enjoy, depending upon who I am with.  I haven't seen Bob this trip and I've done a lot of floundering.  I have had a lot of fun, and enjoyed climbing... but it certainly doesn't compare to the routes I do with Bob.  Why is that?  I really never meant to become dependent...

I've said that it's not a lot of fun climbing with Bob.  What I meant is... there's not a lot of play when we're out.  He eyes me, marks a route, and watches me close.  If there is much floundering, we are done with that route.  He's pretty chill... maybe clinical.  We take a lot of sandwich breaks. But man... I get up those routes!  I also don't come home sunburnt, over tired, or banged up.  If it's sunny, we are in the shade... if it's cold, we are in the lone sunny spot.  He's understated, I guess.... yet I come back and look at the routes, and realize we did some amazing things.  On those same outings with a friend, it may not go so well.  (I want it to be the same!)

Maybe this is a bit of reverse ego... this being a lifestyle/sport that really flourished under the dirtbag culture but today I still don't know how I would get the climbing job done without a lot of guidance.  It has meant, essentially, to clear out every other obligation in my life, take whatever 'retirement' I could muster... forgo the cruises and whatever else people expect to do (but I never wanted to do anyway)... and do this.  This trip would not be so fun if I were left to my own devices.  (I can say the same thing for indoor climbing now... )

One big  victory this week was hanging out at the top of a route, setting anchor, trekking in my own stuff.... feeling pretty competent both climbing and rigging (this one specific climb.   )  That 'ease' is starting to happen... maybe I'm impatient.  

This post pretty well sums up the whole "climbing experience"

Some trips are better than others, and you can't rush experience.

Climbing with an experienced partner "at the reigns" who is guiding the show is way different than one who's "along for the ride."

I've spent my whole life directing traffic and teaching people what this stuff is all about. I enjoy it.

Enjoy the victories with the losses.

I'll close with a quote from a conversation at hanging belay.

"If this shit was easy everyone would be doing it."

John Barritt wrote:
I've spent my whole life directing traffic and teaching people what this stuff is all about. I enjoy it.

Enjoy the victories with the losses.

I'll close with a quote from a conversation at hanging belay.

"If this shit was easy everyone would be doing it."

God John, you don’t know how happy this makes me. (Except you didn’t make up any new words.) Seriously sometimes you or someone else here will just say the thing that makes it all better  

I have the feeling I love climbing BECAUSE it’s hard, beautiful, unique and complex... and then I get pissed because it’s hard.   Might be a good mantra to repeat as I’m trudging up a climb... “This shit’s hard... this shit’s hard...” (except that violates the rule about positive thinking.   )

Ah, yes...the Rifle belay.  Original GriGri, loop of rope on the ground, cigarette/beer in the brake hand, and eyes ogling the Lycra-clad Betty couple routes over.  I miss the early 90s.