Draws stolen of China Doll

I never expected the individual that removed my draws to own up to it, and I honestly don't care that much.   At the end of the day, I would rather be the one that coughs up $100 for some new gear than the person that's pissed off about something asinine like project draws.   Really, how do folks care about this s&%t so much?  

Pretty much none of us are professional climbers, and our climbing is just a distraction from a bunch of other stuff we're supposed to be doing.  If you are a pro, then you almost definitely don't care about my draws.   If aesthetics are a concern, then you could have left the draws at the base of the climb.   As far as draws changing the experience for those leading it on gear - maybe you should chop the bolts (better be before you ever use one) because you still have a bunch of clippies on your harness you can use to bail.  

In any case, I would like my draws back.  If the individual in possession wishes, they can PM me, otherwise I'll probably just see you at the route.  

These threads are the dumbest on MP. Bravo!

Tradiban wrote: These threads are the dumbest on MP. Bravo!

I looked over the thread and came to the conclusion that there should be a special forum for these common threads. 

Oh wait, there is- https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/103989415/lost-and-found

. Mobes wrote:

I looked over the thread and came to the conclusion that there should be a special forum for these common threads. 

Oh wait, there is- https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/103989415/lost-and-found

Perhaps we should ban bolting and end this problem once and for all.

Tradiban wrote: Perhaps we should ban bolting and end this problem once and for all.

Yes, let's get the community to vote on it!

. Mobes wrote:

Yes, let's get the community to vote on it!

While we're at it, can we ban dogs at the crags?  And kids?  And ghettoblasters and hammocks and smoking and gym climbers?

The all or nothing attitude is unfortunate.  Just because we accept bolts does not mean that we have to accept routes with bolts every three feet or bolts next to solid natural placements.  Just because we accept permadraws in some locations does not mean that we can't limit their use to where they are necessary and not merely convenient for the send.  Just because people have been using project draws for a long time does not mean that we have to accept their unlimited use everywhere.   In comparison, I can accept that hunters are allowed to use atvs to retrieve elk in areas near my home where atvs and other off-road motorized vehicles are, thankfully, banned most of the year.   While I accept that some airplanes and helicopters will always fly over Sedona and the Grand Canyon, I can reasonably support restrictions and limitations on constant tourist overflights in those areas.  It isn't just non-climbers who find perma draws and semi-permanent project draws to be be ugly.  Lots of climbers, including myself, find them to be really hideous.  They look ugly and they give an area a different feel that makes the climbing more like being at the gym. I have spent a lot of time getting draws on my projects before I was able to send them, so I know what a difference it makes to have them in place, but that doesn't mean that I want to see them everywhere – I don't.  They do represent an increasing threat to access in many places.  Isn't access more important than the convenience of a send attempt?    

Justin Winger wrote:

It doesnt matter if I am or someone else is. The fact that they have no right since they dont own dream canyon is the point. Even the pro's out here remove their draws when they are done for the day. But hey cause he climbs 14's hes special in your opinion I guess.

They undoubtably do not. How many pro-spirits have you seen on a route? None, because fixed draws are new to you? Go climb hard routes and you'll see plenty of fixed shit. There's front range zones (I'm not gonna call them out, I have draws on routes and don't want you to steal them) that are half pro-draws. The pros I know and have climbed around only take gear off of routes that are too easy for them to come back to.

J A wrote: The all or nothing attitude is unfortunate.  Just because we accept bolts does not mean that we have to accept routes with bolts every three feet or bolts next to solid natural placements.  Just because we accept permadraws in some locations does not mean that we can't limit their use to where they are necessary and not merely convenient for the send.  Just because people have been using project draws for a long time does not mean that we have to accept their unlimited use everywhere.   In comparison, I can accept that hunters are allowed to use atvs to retrieve elk in areas near my home where atvs and other off-road motorized vehicles are, thankfully, banned most of the year.   While I accept that some airplanes and helicopters will always fly over Sedona and the Grand Canyon, I can reasonably support restrictions and limitations on constant tourist overflights in those areas.  It isn't just non-climbers who find perma draws and semi-permanent project draws to be be ugly.  Lots of climbers, including myself, find them to be really hideous.  They look ugly and they give an area a different feel that makes the climbing more like being at the gym. I have spent a lot of time getting draws on my projects before I was able to send them, so I know what a difference it makes to have them in place, but that doesn't mean that I want to see them everywhere – I don't.  They do represent an increasing threat to access in many places.  Isn't access more important than the convenience of a send attempt?    

Agree. Remove the bolts and stop the problem.

ClimberRunner wrote: [irrelevant aside] That route isn't 5.14 and leading it "trad" involves placing about 6 pieces, even without clipping bolts. It's full of pins, heads, fixed wires, and an intermediate anchor with a no-hands.

funky 5.12c -> No hands at the "5.13" anchor - > Sustained V7/v8

The rock quality is also surprisingly not good (scrabby and crumbling) - hence numerous accounts of foot chips and crimps breaking off regularly. [/irellevant]

If you took someone else's gear off the route, you should have left it at the base of clipped to the first bolt.

Tell me more about the 12c first pitch.  Tank Evans calls it 13b/c (he also calls Choose Life 12d-to-V6 so perhaps not a fluffer).

Marc H wrote:

Man hearing this, it’s like I flashed back to the parking lot of the Philadelphia civic center in late 78’ man. Back when Randy and Tony were developing the art of how to project hard “trad” routes using “advanced” tactics. I’m sure there were fat dads stealing their shit, and guys named tradiban talking about chopping bolts then too. I think a guy named john Bachar even got knocked out one time by mark Chapman for chopping said bolts. But hey young tony and Randy stuck to their guns and standards were raised for us aspiring would-be soft bros and there was much rejoicing

Bt dubs, this is my thread, you trolls just live under the bridge

It's a well researched and proven fact that people who provide a phone number in their OP and also leave draws hanging love to get unsolicited dick pics sent to them.

Do your best MP!

http://www.northconwayrockclimbs.com/support-material/States.of.the.Art.Part2.pdf

Also the draws were not mine bra

How is China Doll still a name so close to the epicenter of Perpetual Wokeness anyway? 

I saw a Crag Kitty on Sunday! Seemed to be living the Kitty Adventure dream.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: I saw a Crag Kitty on Sunday! Seemed to be living the Kitty Adventure dream.

Uh what?

. Mobes wrote:

Uh what?

Like a Baws with paws:

1. Stealing someone's stuff is not chill. 
2. It's pretty lazy to leave the draws, just clean them up.
3. Anyone who leaves even a single shiny biner uncovered in their car in Boulder should expect their window to be smashed when they get back. That's simply the state of things. If I left my wallet and cell phone on a bench in the center of a tourist trap destination in Europe overnight, I definitely wouldn't expect it to still be there the next day, no matter how shitty it is for someone to steal it. Know that if you do leave gear for whatever reason, it will likely not be there the next day. Expect the worst, hope for the best.

My biggest question is something some of you have already addressed somewhat...
I know it's annoying to have someone else's draws there, but leaving draws hanging doesn't seem "condemnable" like stealing someone's draws would be. Stupid for sure, but not like a terrible violation of ethics. Those who are hating on people who leave draws, do you just bring up your annoyance with having to climb a route with pre-hanging draws to add more to your list of grievances, or do you truly hate it that much?

Brother Numsie wrote: How is China Doll still a name so close to the epicenter of Perpetual Wokeness anyway? 

Why, what's the story behind the name?