What do you do at the crag when a class "reserves" TR routes that they're not climbing?

Buck Rio wrote: I think everyone (with a couple exceptions) has a good point about guided parties dominating a limited resource at local crags. IMO if you show up with the right attitude, and don't be a spas about it, you can co-exist with guided parties. I don't know how hanging a rope and then having multiple people climb is any different from the dude at the sports crag working a project for an hour, swearing and acting like a ten year old.

Depends on what you mean by "guided parties".  I mentioned earlier that I haven't had that many problems with legit, licensed guides working with folks.  Usually they're on routes that are below what I want or they're in areas with lots of options.  It seems as though other people have had problems with 'real' guides though.  The groups I have most problems with are the ones that have a "leader" that is somewhat experienced and drags all his friends out that just started climbing last month.  This seems to be a typical scenario.  I tried to recall when I saw this scenario last and how prevalent it is, and I'd say of my last 10 trips out, 8 of those trips had one large party with at least two routes taken and not being used for an excessive amount of time, and 4 or 5 of those trips there were really large parties of a dozen or more with two "strongman" leaders where they had 5 ropes up or more.  At least half of these instances were in areas that aren't known for low level bolted climbing, but have a few scattered sub 5.10 or low 5.10 routes nearby the classic, somewhat harder lines.  So, maybe they had good intentions and figured by staying away from the areas chock full of lower difficulty routes, they'd take the path less traveled to stay out of the way.  Of those 8 instances, only one was a legit guide being paid for services, and coincidentally, that was the only time that I had the leader of a group offer to let me and my partner cut in, and quickly lead and clean if we wanted.

Hanging a rope and having multiple people climb isn't an issue.  If you bring 20 people to the crag (as idiotic as that sounds) and you want to gang rope three routes into oblivion all day long, then have at it.  But if you want to bring 13 people to an area with 5.11+ routes and up except for a couple warmup routes, and hang ropes on those routes and then just have the ropes sit while no one is climbing, and refuse to let another party climb while your ropes just sit there doing nothing, that's a dick move.  Period.  Usually the dude at a sport crag working a project for an hour will actually be climbing, and won't be on something that the majority of people can climb and use as a warmup in an area that has a scarcity of them.  That's the difference.  Swearing and acting like a 10 year old is a different issue entirely.  But I'd rather see that than see the only routes that can be considered warmups taken by no one at all, reserved with a hanging rope, and risk injury by hopping on something with small holds when not properly warmed up.

And yeah, Sloppy Second was trolling, but it's true.  Everyone that has a reply of "get stronger" or "so what, go find something else", great.  I hear you.  That's why I'm hauling 8 ropes to the crag at 5:30 am the next time I go- so I can make sure I have routes reserved for me and all my friends, because I guess that's how shit works now.

Noah Roulat wrote:  Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

Never seen so many tears over TRing some newbie routes.

Here's an idea: Go make your own.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

This!!! In my mind, as long as you keep your group moving, and don't just let the ropes dangle, then a group of 12 climbers with 6 ropes isn't really that different from 6 groups of 2, each with their own rope, and sharing each other's ropes. Sure, that's a lot of people at the crag, but the crag would be crowded regardless of whether that's one large group or several smaller ones.

I'm often with a group. Even if it's just my family, we're group of 4. With friends, it's not uncommon for us to have 8 or more. One thing that helps is that we all climb at about the same level. (Within a letter grade or 2.) So we don't have 2 crushers and 6 beginners. And we all lead. We might choose to TR a particular route, but everyone in our group is capable of leading. (Including my 9-year-old sons.)

In addition, we make it a point to:
1) Bring 1 rope for every 2-3 climbers. Again, we want our impact to be similar to multiple smaller groups.
2) Keep climbing. Regardless of whether there are other climbers at the crag, we don't just sit around with ropes dangling. Last time we were at RRG, we got 8 people up 8 routes, and were done well before sunset. (And that's not counting the additional single climber that TR'ed a route on our rope, nor the group of beginners whose rope we led up for them.)
3) Offer to let others rotate in. Again, treat it as multiple smaller groups, all sharing ropes. Another group shows up? Share with them, too!

I've never found it difficult to get along with other climbers at the crag. We've met some really cool people, and had some great conversations. Just don't act like you own the crag, and then accuse others of the same.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

I think if you bring two dozen people to the crag, you hang a dozen ropes and there are people actively climbing those routes for the duration of the time they're there, then that's awesome.  The whole issue that people seem to be forgetting that's in the OP is "THAT THEY'RE NOT CLIMBING".  If you're not climbing a route, and if a party of two ask to quickly lead, follow, then hang your rope back up, it is you that's acting like you own the crag, not the the party that asked to climb something that wasn't being climbed.

No, I think bringing two dozen people to the crag is a problem in itself. Managing a group of 20+ people is very hard, and you are pretty much guaranteed that you wouldn’t have All of them moving at the same speed, so some ropes will be hanging unused. 

Large groups, even guided groups, should be limited to about 8-10 people. You have to have more guides for larger groups, and if you have more guides anyway, you might as well split the groups. 

Go put up your own areas, don't put them on MP.  That will take care of any issues. Lots of complaining here above for nothing.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

Hanging a rope and having multiple people climb isn't an issue.  If you bring 20 people to the crag (as idiotic as that sounds) and you want to gang rope three routes into oblivion all day long, then have at it.  But if you want to bring 13 people to an area with 5.11+ routes and up except for a couple warmup routes, and hang ropes on those routes and then just have the ropes sit while no one is climbing, and refuse to let another party climb while your ropes just sit there doing nothing, that's a dick move.  Period.  Usually the dude at a sport crag working a project for an hour will actually be climbing, and won't be on something that the majority of people can climb and use as a warmup in an area that has a scarcity of them.  That's the difference.  Swearing and acting like a 10 year old is a different issue entirely.  But I'd rather see that than see the only routes that can be considered warmups taken by no one at all, reserved with a hanging rope, and risk injury by hopping on something with small holds when not properly warmed up.

What happens is that everybody on MP automatically think of the place they climb, and has a story about some rude route hogs. When remembering guided parties, my mind immediately goes to the f*cking boy scouts that do the worst type of gang TR hogging of any group I have ever seen.

They normally don't even have a real climber in the group, just some dad that has taken a TR setup course, so they don't have a clue about climbing protocol. They are usually guilty of taking forever to set an anchor, and massively over-rigging/under-rigging the setup.  And they rarely take advice on: cross-loaded biner from too wide and angle, biner over edge, shitty knot tying, improperly placed gear etc.

There have been groups that are good as well, but they aren't the BSA.

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Go put up your own areas, don't put them on MP.  That will take care of any issues. Lots of complaining here above for nothing.

Jeffry, move to MN and say that...looks fun BTW.

There are definitely ‘guide areas’ in places like Jtree and RR. After some experience, seasoned climbers just venture elsewhere, no big deal.

Buck Rio wrote:

What happens is that everybody on MP automatically think of the place they climb, and has a story about some rude route hogs. When remembering guided parties, my mind immediately goes to the f*cking boy scouts that do the worst type of gang TR hogging of any group I have ever seen.

They normally don't even have a real climber in the group, just some dad that has taken a TR setup course, so they don't have a clue about climbing protocol. They are usually guilty of taking forever to set an anchor, and massively over-rigging/under-rigging the setup.  And they rarely take advice on: cross-loaded biner from too wide and angle, biner over edge, shitty knot tying, improperly placed gear etc.

There have been groups that are good as well, but they aren't the BSA.

lol.

My friend is a Troop Leader.

He wanted to take the troop climbing/rappelling and didn't want to take over the local choss pile etc etc.

I said, "Not a problem. I know just the spot and we'll make our own perfect little area. We'll report it to MP when your son is no longer in the Scouts".

15 min. level walk. Looks like this:


Mostly hand drilled anchors. No excuses! You gotta move out West Buck! :D

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

lol.

My friend is a Troop Leader.

He wanted to take the troop climbing/rappelling and didn't want to take over the local choss pile etc etc.

I said, "Not a problem. I know just the spot and we'll make our own perfect little area. We'll report it to MP when your son is no longer in the Scouts".

15 min. level walk. Looks like this:

Mostly hand drilled anchors. No excuses! You gotta move out West Buck! :D

Cool, that is some LOW angle stuff.  

It is too late to move now....wifey and I can see the end coming. If everything works out, wife will retire in 6 years and me in 10.  She has a pension, I do not.

We missed our opportunity. We both used to work for Northwest Airlines, and I get let go after 9/11, and she could see the writing on the wall about her job, so we looked in Denver area for work, and she actually had an offer from Celestial Seasonings but turned it down.  I started at a bank that next spring so we were stuck.

Buck Rio wrote:

Cool, that is some LOW angle stuff.  

It is too late to move now....wifey and I can see the end coming, if everything works out, wife will retire in 6 years and me in 10.  She has a pension, I do not.

Meh, its a 40' slab beginner crag. 5.5 to 5.10 with most in the 5.6-5.8 range and representative for the grade on Granite slabs out West. Perfect for the sprouty sprouts. ;D

Thank God and FDR for Social Security.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

5.5 to 5.10 with most in the 5.6-5.8 range and representative for the grade on Granite slabs out West. Perfect for the sprouty sprouts. ;D

Thank God and FDR for Social Security.

And the fact that we are very good at saving money and have no children....

Jaren Watson wrote:

I think it’s cool when the surprise at seeing you have no partner progresses to asking you if what you’re doing is safe, then telling you it’s a bad idea, then walking away muttering “I’m not going to watch this. I don’t want to be held responsible.”

The looks and reactions are even better when you do solo trad.

Noah R wrote:
Hahahaha I now see that... lol

Good on you for seeing it and laughing about it. Some people get pretty emo when they're told they got trolled.

Robert S wrote:

Good on you for seeing it and laughing about it. Some people get pretty emo when they're told they got trolled.

It just the internet. If you let it get to you, you probably should not travel to online forums! Plus I can respect a quality troll.