What do you do at the crag when a class "reserves" TR routes that they're not climbing?

don'tchuffonme wrote: Yes, you should be polite.
Yes, you should climb harder.
Yes, you should approach the 'group leader' and engage a dialogue.

No, you shouldn't have to.  A rope on a route is not a reservation of that route.  Not in CA, not in WY, not in NH, NC or WV or anywhere else.  The fact that so many people are saying "just go talk to them" or "leave" and not pointing out that this occurrence is pretty regular now, is a sad testament to the state of things.  It's one thing if it's one route.  NBD.  Hop on something else.  But if it's multiple routes and no one's climbing anything, that's just nonsense.  If I have more than 2 people on a route, or if I'm top roping something and I see a party of two come up and eyeball the route, I offer to pull my rope as long as they agree to hang it back up when they're done.  This used to be the norm, now it's not.  Now it's "tough shit" and "get stronger" and "we were here first" that has replaced the unspoken, polite and generally adhered to principle that leaders take priority.  I realize I sound like a curmudgeon.  I don't care.  If it was once in a while, I wouldn't say anything, but this shit is rampant.

I'm not saying don't be polite and engage the group in friendly dialogue.  I'm not saying not to train and get stronger so you can warm up on routes that are above the guided neophyte level.  By all means, do that.  What I'm saying, is that it's a general flaw in the way outdoor ethics have evolved into thinking that a rope hanging through an anchor with no one climbing reserves a route indefinitely.  It was bullshit two decades ago, and it's bullshit now.  Some people will be polite and have some sense of the importance of sharing a resource with smaller parties.  Others act like they own it.  It's the latter that I have a problem with, and from my experiences, that group seems to be growing.  Not calling that out, and not making an attempt to dispel this sense of entitlement is a mistake, and it's exactly why the problem is becoming more pervasive.

Them some good points. I left out that OP has a reasonable expectation that the group leader needs to share. If they politely decline, OP should politely and firmly get after their superior.

Sloppy Second wrote:I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

Just remember, if you are letting MP dictate what is allowed, all those ropes and anchors count as abandoned and are thus booty.

How about when I'm climbing with your mom? Do I have to jump through all these hoops to TR some SEMI classics without interrupting the obvious flow of the day? If I yell at some n00b SPI I'm not sensitive enough. If I ignore it and post on the internet about it I'm a snowflake.

WWARM do?

Go to another crag and enjoy.

gs goodyear wrote: Go to another crag and enjoy.

Wrong answer.

Groups hogging routes is unacceptable, especially groups that people are making money on (guiding).

These people (guides) are obligated to yield to regular climbers who are using their hard earned weekend to get their climb time in. The clients can wait, they aren't jonesen for particular routes anyway.

1. Hobo Greg wrote:

Open question to all, what is the legal liability for guides when letting others climb on your ropes? Alternatively, if they pull your rope, what do they use for an anchor if the cracks are limited? Let em clip into yours? I imagine this varies area to area and company to company?

Warming up in the AM at Pixie Rock (Jtree) a couple years back, local guide outfit comes in to set up some ropes for clients. Offered us some laps. We declined. Went elsewhere. 

It was that super nice guy Seth though, top notch guy imo. 

On the lead vs. TR debate, I always heard lead should get preference, that is if the guide offers, which they should, if the route isn’t going to be used for a bit. Fine line though, I could see some n00ber coming in for a mini epic, now the guides anchor is still up there. 
Leaning toward the 1st on scene now.
Some variables there, but moving on always a good idea. 

Chad N wrote:

On the lead vs. TR debate, I always heard lead should get preference, that is if the guide offers, which they should, if the route isn’t going to be used for a bit. Fine line though, I could see some n00ber coming in for a mini epic, now the guides anchor is still up there. 

Absolutely.  It works both ways.  If a party has a rope up, and if no one's on it and they're getting ready to climb, or give you the right of way so you can get on it, you better lead and clean it and not struggle on it for an hour, or even a half hour.  Definitely a fine line.  This isn't to say you can't work together either-  I've pulled my top rope so a couple could quickly lead, then clean the route.  The leader finished quicker than anyone in my party could climb it.  The follower struggled from the start.  The leader, realizing this was a bit of a predicament, offered to lead another route with my rope and anchor gear in order for us to have something else to climb while his follower worked on the route we were on originally.  Again, this was all established by striking up a friendly conversation and having two competent parties that are well educated in typical outdoor ethics and both parties realizing how important time on quality routes for weekend warriors is.

However- in the past few years, at various areas (in different states- primarily at single pitch areas) I have found almost as many people that think a rope = route reservation whether someone is climbing or not, and are not willing to share, as people that are 'in the know' and are willing to work together.  Sometimes being right is more important than being happy when all other options that are kinder and softer haven't panned out.  I'm as nice as can be until it doesn't work, then I'm pretty candid and will tell you you're wrong, and I think everyone else should too.  They may not learn that day, but they may remember the contentious situation and bring it up to other climbers, some of whom will tell them "yeah, you were in the wrong there."  It's either that, or just shrug your shoulders and let these entitled folks impose their will on you.  I'm not really into turning the other cheek, unless it means avoiding physical confrontation and not engaging in criminal conduct.  If you're wrong though, I'll let you know.  And all you experienced climbers out there that have just shrugged your shoulders and walked away and inconvenienced yourselves because of someone else's entitlement-  why are you training hard and saving money for trips and watching the weather and organizing logistics just to get there and let people that view climbing as just a "cool way to stay fit" run you off?  Stop doing that.  Good on you for being the adult, but sometimes adults have to teach kids the right way.  Also, hats off to the folks that manage large groups and are friendly and willing to work together.  I still think that the majority of you do the right thing and are willing to work together.  

The groups I mainly see engaging in this entitled behavior aren't organized/guided groups.  It's a group of people being taken out by a person solely for purposes of adoration and attention.  It's self-aggrandizing behavior.  It's usually one guy, exceptionally strong, hasn't been climbing all that long, is still in the "climbing is awesome omgwtf I want everyone to see how awesome it is and how awesome I am at it" phase, and so he spends the day or the weekend climbing things below his level and hanging top ropes for his "crew".  And because he wants to see everyone fail where he succeeded, he's resistant to have his crew see someone else float up a warmup like he did.  The response I most often get is "Nah man, sorry.  I just put this rope up and they're going to get on it in a few minutes." or "nah man, we got like 4 people left after these two that want to climb it".  Invariably, 30 minutes later there's still a group of giggling early 20s people talking about whatever, not climbing anything and not really concerned about the volume of climbing they're getting in or volume others are not getting because of their actions.  Not really malicious, but oblivious.  But the attention seeking leader, he knows.  All I'm saying is when you come across this nonsense, and I know plenty of you have, don't just walk away.  As tactfully as you can, let them know it's not acceptable.  I can't be the only one that's seen an increase in this behavior and this type of scenario in the past few (say 5) years.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

Absolutely.  It works both ways.  If a party has a rope up, and if no one's on it and they're getting ready to climb, or give you the right of way so you can get on it, you better lead and clean it and not struggle on it for an hour, or even a half hour.  Definitely a fine line.  This isn't to say you can't work together either-  I've pulled my top rope so a couple could quickly lead, then clean the route.  The leader finished quicker than anyone in my party could climb it.  The follower struggled from the start.  The leader, realizing this was a bit of a predicament, offered to lead another route with my rope and anchor gear in order for us to have something else to climb while his follower worked on the route we were on originally.  Again, this was all established by striking up a friendly conversation and having two competent parties that are well educated in typical outdoor ethics and both parties realizing how important time on quality routes for weekend warriors is.

However- in the past few years, at various areas (in different states- primarily at single pitch areas) I have found almost as many people that think a rope = route reservation whether someone is climbing or not, and are not willing to share, as people that are 'in the know' and are willing to work together.  Sometimes being right is more important than being happy when all other options that are kinder and softer haven't panned out.  I'm as nice as can be until it doesn't work, then I'm pretty candid and will tell you you're wrong, and I think everyone else should too.  They may not learn that day, but they may remember the contentious situation and bring it up to other climbers, some of whom will tell them "yeah, you were in the wrong there."  It's either that, or just shrug your shoulders and let these entitled folks impose their will on you.  I'm not really into turning the other cheek, unless it means avoiding physical confrontation and not engaging in criminal conduct.  If you're wrong though, I'll let you know.  And all you experienced climbers out there that have just shrugged your shoulders and walked away and inconvenienced yourselves because of someone else's entitlement-  why are you training hard and saving money for trips and watching the weather and organizing logistics just to get there and let people that view climbing as just a "cool way to stay fit" run you off?  Stop doing that.  Good on you for being the adult, but sometimes adults have to teach kids the right way.  Also, hats off to the folks that manage large groups and are friendly and willing to work together.  I still think that the majority of you do the right thing and are willing to work together.  

The groups I mainly see engaging in this entitled behavior aren't organized/guided groups.  It's a group of people being taken out by a person solely for purposes of adoration and attention.  It's self-aggrandizing behavior.  It's usually one guy, exceptionally strong, hasn't been climbing all that long, is still in the "climbing is awesome omgwtf I want everyone to see how awesome it is and how awesome I am at it" phase, and so he spends the day or the weekend climbing things below his level and hanging top ropes for his "crew".  And because he wants to see everyone fail where he succeeded, he's resistant to have his crew see someone else float up a warmup like he did.  The response I most often get is "Nah man, sorry.  I just put this rope up and they're going to get on it in a few minutes." or "nah man, we got like 4 people left after these two that want to climb it".  Invariably, 30 minutes later there's still a group of giggling early 20s people talking about whatever, not climbing anything and not really concerned about the volume of climbing they're getting in or volume others are not getting because of their actions.  Not really malicious, but oblivious.  But the attention seeking leader, he knows.  All I'm saying is when you come across this nonsense, and I know plenty of you have, don't just walk away.  As tactfully as you can, let them know it's not acceptable.  I can't be the only one that's seen an increase in this behavior and this type of scenario in the past few (say 5) years.

Ha, don't forget all the attention given to the hot YP. Everyone else- on your own !

I think everyone (with a couple exceptions) has a good point about guided parties dominating a limited resource at local crags. IMO if you show up with the right attitude, and don't be a spas about it, you can co-exist with guided parties. I don't know how hanging a rope and then having multiple people climb is any different from the dude at the sports crag working a project for an hour, swearing and acting like a ten year old.

I am lucky that in the hinterlands of MN, I know/are known to most of the regular guides. Not that we are on a first name basis, but if you hang around the same rocks and gyms, you recognize people. They are always super cool to me, know that I'll rope solo something and then move on. Sometimes I'll set two anchors and hang two climbs rap down, climb one, rap and climb the second and then break down my anchor(s).  I'll be there maybe an hour...the clients haven't even tied in by then.

I have even run into a former local guide out in the Needles (SD) who had guided the previous weekend and was waiting for another set of clients to show up and was just doing some light soloing. He showed me and my partner a couple routes in the Sylvan Lake area, we led a few and he rope gunned a harder route we would not have led. All he wanted was a cold beer. He was grievously injured by a drunk driver 5 years ago and I hope he is doing OK.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

Absolutely.  It works both ways.  If a party has a rope up, and if no one's on it and they're getting ready to climb, or give you the right of way so you can get on it, you better lead and clean it and not struggle on it for an hour, or even a half hour.  Definitely a fine line.  This isn't to say you can't work together either-  I've pulled my top rope so a couple could quickly lead, then clean the route.  The leader finished quicker than anyone in my party could climb it.  The follower struggled from the start.  The leader, realizing this was a bit of a predicament, offered to lead another route with my rope and anchor gear in order for us to have something else to climb while his follower worked on the route we were on originally.  Again, this was all established by striking up a friendly conversation and having two competent parties that are well educated in typical outdoor ethics and both parties realizing how important time on quality routes for weekend warriors is.

However- in the past few years, at various areas (in different states- primarily at single pitch areas) I have found almost as many people that think a rope = route reservation whether someone is climbing or not, and are not willing to share, as people that are 'in the know' and are willing to work together.  Sometimes being right is more important than being happy when all other options that are kinder and softer haven't panned out.  I'm as nice as can be until it doesn't work, then I'm pretty candid and will tell you you're wrong, and I think everyone else should too.  They may not learn that day, but they may remember the contentious situation and bring it up to other climbers, some of whom will tell them "yeah, you were in the wrong there."  It's either that, or just shrug your shoulders and let these entitled folks impose their will on you.  I'm not really into turning the other cheek, unless it means avoiding physical confrontation and not engaging in criminal conduct.  If you're wrong though, I'll let you know.  And all you experienced climbers out there that have just shrugged your shoulders and walked away and inconvenienced yourselves because of someone else's entitlement-  why are you training hard and saving money for trips and watching the weather and organizing logistics just to get there and let people that view climbing as just a "cool way to stay fit" run you off?  Stop doing that.  Good on you for being the adult, but sometimes adults have to teach kids the right way.  Also, hats off to the folks that manage large groups and are friendly and willing to work together.  I still think that the majority of you do the right thing and are willing to work together.  

The groups I mainly see engaging in this entitled behavior aren't organized/guided groups.  It's a group of people being taken out by a person solely for purposes of adoration and attention.  It's self-aggrandizing behavior.  It's usually one guy, exceptionally strong, hasn't been climbing all that long, is still in the "climbing is awesome omgwtf I want everyone to see how awesome it is and how awesome I am at it" phase, and so he spends the day or the weekend climbing things below his level and hanging top ropes for his "crew".  And because he wants to see everyone fail where he succeeded, he's resistant to have his crew see someone else float up a warmup like he did.  The response I most often get is "Nah man, sorry.  I just put this rope up and they're going to get on it in a few minutes." or "nah man, we got like 4 people left after these two that want to climb it".  Invariably, 30 minutes later there's still a group of giggling early 20s people talking about whatever, not climbing anything and not really concerned about the volume of climbing they're getting in or volume others are not getting because of their actions.  Not really malicious, but oblivious.  But the attention seeking leader, he knows.  All I'm saying is when you come across this nonsense, and I know plenty of you have, don't just walk away.  As tactfully as you can, let them know it's not acceptable.  I can't be the only one that's seen an increase in this behavior and this type of scenario in the past few (say 5) years.

TL;DR "GET OFF MY LAWN".

What's the point of climbing if you can't flex for the bitches?

Get in line sucka...lol

Hold my shirt and pass me my beanie. Kthx.

don'tchuffonme wrote: Yes, you should be polite.
Yes, you should climb harder.
Yes, you should approach the 'group leader' and engage a dialogue.

No, you shouldn't have to.  A rope on a route is not a reservation of that route.  Not in CA, not in WY, not in NH, NC or WV or anywhere else.

Not calling that out, and not making an attempt to dispel this sense of entitlement is a mistake, and it's exactly why the problem is becoming more pervasive.
I completely agree with you. I think people saying “talk to them”, etc, is more of a realistic c assessment of what you could do, rather than endorsement of the thing that caused you to go talk to them in the first place. 

I tell my teenager who is learning to drive: Always look both ways when you are pulling out of the driveway, look out for the kids who may be riding their bikes, they might not see you, they might not stop and let you go first...

But when she was a little kid riding her bike on the sidewalk, I would tell her, ALWAYS stop when it looks like the car is pulling out of the driveway, don’t assume that they would see you and stop. 

It’s the same thing here... if the guide posted the question about the same situation, people would say, don’t hog the routes, go to less busy crags, pull your ropes and offer people a chance to climb on the routes you aren’t actively using...

But the question was posted from the other side, So advice is things that are in the power of the person asking the question to actually do. 

Possession is 90% of the law of the crag, and many guide services abuse this reality.

Sloppy Second wrote: When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

If your gear is labeled in a way that I know whose rope/anchor it is and why it has been seemingly abandoned, then I would probably just tie it aside or remove it while I am climbing, then replace it. If it wasn't labeled, wasn't fixed, and I didn't know why it was there though, I might walk away with some nice new gear unless you show up to claim it.

Sloppy Second wrote: When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

Not trying to be a dick here at all, just curious to hear more about your perspective.
With that being said, there are a few questionable things in there.

1) "If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup."

Can you blame them for being pissed when they've been working all week, getting to where they wanted to climb, and you have Top Rope tendrils on "A dozen or so routes"

2) "It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag."

Honestly I think the first come first served etiquette only works when you have set up on like one or two routes, ya know? Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

"some people act like they own the crag." If you actually set up 12 top ropes, and only pull ropes for people who are especially polite kinda seems like you think you own the crag?

But as mentioned above, not at all a personal attack, just thought there were some inconsistencies/ give you the perspective of someone who would walk up on you in that situation. 

John Clark wrote:

If your gear is labeled in a way that I know whose rope/anchor it is and why it has been seemingly abandoned, then I would probably just tie it aside or remove it while I am climbing, then replace it. If it wasn't labeled, wasn't fixed, and I didn't know why it was there though, I might walk away with some nice new gear unless you show up to claim it.

I set up the TRs in the evening when everyone has retired to the drum circles in their campgrounds, and attend to them at first light. 

Nobody is going to encounter these rigs unless they are specifically looking for them during the night. These types of climbers do exist but they are the bottom feeders of the crag world and deserve no booty.

I think Sloppy Second is trolling, guys.

I take about 30 seconds to go though the seven stages of dealing with loss and then I find somewhere else to climb. 

Noah Roulat wrote: Not trying to be a dick here at all, just curious to hear more about your perspective.
With that being said, there are a few questionable things in there.

1) "If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup."

Can you blame them for being pissed when they've been working all week, getting to where they wanted to climb, and you have Top Rope tendrils on "A dozen or so routes"

2) "It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag."

Honestly I think the first come first served etiquette only works when you have set up on like one or two routes, ya know? Seems unfair to claim a dozen routes indefinitely.

"some people act like they own the crag." If you actually set up 12 top ropes, and only pull ropes for people who are especially polite kinda seems like you think you own the crag?

But as mentioned above, not at all a personal attack, just thought there were some inconsistencies/ give you the perspective of someone who would walk up on you in that situation. 

Sloppy was being satirical.

Marc801 C wrote:

Sloppy was being satirical.

Hahahaha I now see that... lol

Sloppy Second wrote:

I set up the TRs in the evening when everyone has retired to the drum circles in their campgrounds, and attend to them at first light. 

Nobody is going to encounter these rigs unless they are specifically looking for them during the night. These types of climbers do exist but they are the bottom feeders of the crag world and deserve no booty.

Dude: I have bootied a TR setup at a local crag, it was really just picking up trash at the point I took it. I got there at o dark thirty, set up my stuff, noticed there was already an anchor there, climbed all day and wandered back to the trail and it was still there at 9 that night. I took it down and kept the hard goods and threw the soft.  No-one should leave an anchor up for more than 24 hours and not climb on it...there was a rope stashed there as well, but it was already gone when I got back.