What do you do at the crag when a class "reserves" TR routes that they're not climbing?

Noah Roulat wrote: I have had this happen at my local crag. REI beginners TR class had setup ropes on literally every route (all 8 of them lol). Only other area was above the trees and baking in the sun.

Here is what you do: Be a real person, introduce yourself. Explain that you were hoping to set up a TR of yourself, Ask what their plan was. At this point, in my experience (Two different occasions at this same spot) the REI Guides will either offer that you can hop on their ropes, or pull a rope from the route you were hoping to do.

As was mentioned earlier, start the encounter as a nice person, and it will likely go well. Be a dick and yer gonna have a bad time.

In this instance you are an ambassador to the climbing world, all of the gumbies in the class will look to you to see how they should act when they are not in a class.

You catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

But if they legitimately refused to move their ropes or let you get on after you have been a nice person, I would probably set up a TR over theirs because they don't own that piece of rock.

+1 True....but sometimes they have a concession (as in my case) with the state park to guide there.

Mostly they climb super easy stuff, so it is best to do your warm up and move on.

Noah Roulat wrote: 
But if they legitimately refused to move their ropes or let you get on after you have been a nice person, I would probably set up a TR over theirs because they don't own that piece of rock.

 you don't own the rock either...

curt86iroc wrote:

 you don't own the rock either...

Thank you for that brilliant insight. Did I say that I owned it? The only rock I own is my pet rock that sleeps with my and ur mom every other Wednesday. 

All joking aside, I am aware I don't own the rock, But if neither of us owns it then we both have equal rights to climb on it, regardless of whether or not there is a class there. cha feel? (Provided that this is not a state park that has an agreement with guides)

Noah Roulat wrote:

Thank you for that brilliant insight. Did I say that I owned it? The only rock I own is my pet rock that sleeps with my and ur mom every other Wednesday. 

All joking aside, I am aware I don't own the rock, But if neither of us owns it then we both have equal rights to climb on it, regardless of whether or not there is a class there. cha feel? (Provided that this is not a state park that has an agreement with guides)

hmm, i'll bite...

here's a scenario. you walk into a crowded bar and you really want that special seat in the corner. you woke up extra early to get it, and you just have to sit there.  upon approaching the seat, you see a half empty beer glass with a coaster on top. the waitress politely informs you that someone is sitting there and just stepped out for a moment.  do you:

a) steal their seat because you think you have "equal rights" to it
b) move along and find somewhere else to sit
c) when the person returns, ask them to share their seat and if they refuse, sit on their lap
d) offer to buy my mom a drink after the horrible session you and your "pet rock" gave to her?

first come, first served. crags work the same.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Dude, this needs to be a bumper sticker, if it’s not already.

To be fair, I didn't make that up. When my son's mother does something to upset me, my "spiritual adviser" often asks, "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" Usually I say both. He makes me pick one. These days, I pick happiness and don't respond to her. 

Julian H wrote:

No it is not the same. You go to a bar to socialize and drink not to sit down. If you start drinking other people drink beer is another story. This is what the guides did. They stoped him from doing what he come to do at the crag. 

If you go to Ouray to ice climb. The people that work there will tell you to get of a climb after 2 hours. It doesn’t matter if you are climbing or if you are sharing ropes with other people. They want you to move the rope so ther people can climb. 

that's because the ice park is run...wait for it...as a park...and the park has specific rules about leaving unattended ropes meant to "hold" a climb. http://ourayicepark.com/rules

curt86iroc wrote:

hmm, i'll bite...

here's a scenario. you walk into a crowded bar and you really want that special seat in the corner. you woke up extra early to get it, and you just have to sit there.  upon approaching the seat, you see a half empty beer glass with a coaster on top. the waitress politely informs you that someone is sitting there and just stepped out for a moment.  do you:

a) steal their seat because you think you have "equal rights" to it
b) move along and find somewhere else to sit
c) when the person returns, ask them to share their seat and if they refuse, sit on their lap
d) offer to buy my mom a drink after the horrible session you and your "pet rock" gave to her?

first come, first served. crags work the same.

You walk into a bar there are two people setting on one side of the Bar they have clothing on the 18  other Bar stools, you ask nicely if you could sit on one of them, they say no they are going to sit on them later. What would you do?

curt86iroc wrote:

hmm, i'll bite...

here's a scenario. you walk into a crowded bar and you really want that special seat in the corner. you woke up extra early to get it, and you just have to sit there.  upon approaching the seat, you see a half empty beer glass with a coaster on top. the waitress politely informs you that someone is sitting there and just stepped out for a moment.  do you:

a) steal their seat because you think you have "equal rights" to it
b) move along and find somewhere else to sit
c) when the person returns, ask them to share their seat and if they refuse, sit on their lap
d) offer to buy my mom a drink after the horrible session you and your "pet rock" gave to her?

first come, first served. crags work the same.

Do they work the same? One is an indoor establishment that has table service, the other is a large piece of rock in the woods. 

I guess an operating business is the same as a rock in the woods? I do see what you're getting at, but I do not think it is even close to the same. It is certainly more like the person above who said two people are sitting at a bar and have 18 coats on all the chairs, they aren't using them. 

Fredrik Ehne wrote:

Dude, you shouldn't have backed out from an excellent troll.

What can I say, I enjoy disappointing.

When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

Noah Roulat wrote:

Do they work the same? One is an indoor establishment that has table service, the other is a large piece of rock in the woods. 

I guess an operating business is the same as a rock in the woods? I do see what you're getting at, but I do not think it is even close to the same. It is certainly more like the person above who said two people are sitting at a bar and have 18 coats on all the chairs, they aren't using them. 

Well, that's not exactly the same either, is it? The OP stated that the group indicated that they were about to start climbing those routes, which they then proceeded to do. It's not like they left them reserved all day, and didn't climb until an hour later. Here's one for you:

You walk into a crowded movie theater minutes before Free Solo starts. The theater is almost full, and worse, there are two people sitting in your preferred location (middle of the middle row). They have their coats draped over the seats next to them, reserving an additional 4 seats. You ask if anyone is sitting there, and they inform you that they're reserving those seats for their friends, who are expected to arrive shortly. There are other seats available, but only in the back row, and way off to the side. Besides, you want those seats! What do you do?

Sloppy Second wrote: When I guide small groups we usually camp the previous night. I will setup dozen or so topropes on popular easy routes the evening before. It works well because we can sleep in and get to the climbs when we get to them. Once we get started there are enough ropes to keep a group of a few climbers engaged without interruption.

I'm an early riser myself, so I'll check on the ropes first thing in the AM and keep an eye on them. If anybody wants to climb there I might allow it if they are especially polite, which is rare because for some reason most people are kinda pissed when they see my setup. It's surprising how many people don't understand the concept of first come first served. I swear some people act like they own the crag.

I'll admit that I have wondered one or twice if this is dick move, but I'm reassured by the consensus here on the MP community that I'm totally in the right when I do this.

When I get to an area and a guide has set up a dozen routes for a few clients and isn't sharing, I hike to the top and piss down all the cracks, you know for extra enjoyment of the route.  

This is obviously a troll...

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Well, that's not exactly the same either, is it? The OP stated that the group indicated that they were about to start climbing those routes, which they then proceeded to do. It's not like they left them reserved all day, and didn't climb until an hour later. Here's one for you:

You walk into a crowded movie theater minutes before Free Solo starts. The theater is almost full, and worse, there are two people sitting in your preferred location (middle of the middle row). They have their coats draped over the seats next to them, reserving an additional 4 seats. You ask if anyone is sitting there, and they inform you that they're reserving those seats for their friends, who are expected to arrive shortly. There are other seats available, but only in the back row, and way off to the side. Besides, you want those seats! What do you do?

If we are gonna argue semantics here, I actually said in my post, "more like" which is quite different than "Exactly the same" 

Totally see your point, I dont think comparing a guided rock climbing class to anything is really gonna be a perfect match.

I have never had a real problem with a class getting in the way of my climbing, becasue as I mentioned above I am just really nice and understand that it is their job to teach people how to safely climb. When you give respect you get respect.  

In reality, I am just fortunate that I was able to learn from experienced friends and not spend money on an REI class. 

Summary:
Be nice.
Talk to the person in charge.
Remain polite, even if they aren't.
Talk to their manager if you can't get anywhere.
Get angry on the internet if none of that works out.

It sounds like you skipped steps 1-4.

Had this situation once at Table Mountain. I just climbed at another part of the crag. Kind of a pain but figured it's just some poor guide trying to make a living and a bunch of folks wanting to have fun and learn to climb, so not worth creating a fuss over it

Noah Roulat wrote:

If we are gonna argue semantics here, I actually said in my post, "more like" which is quite different than "Exactly the same" 

Totally see your point, I dont think comparing a guided rock climbing class to anything is really gonna be a perfect match.

I have never had a real problem with a class getting in the way of my climbing, becasue as I mentioned above I am just really nice and understand that it is their job to teach people how to safely climb. When you give respect you get respect.  

In reality, I am just fortunate that I was able to learn from experienced friends and not spend money on an REI class. 

Fair enough. I've never had a problem sharing routes, either. I've found that being friendly and striking up a conversation goes a long way to helping everyone have a good time at the crag. (This is spoken  both as someone who's climbed at a crag where a class was taking place, and as someone who's been part of a large group with multiple ropes.)

curt86iroc wrote:

hmm, i'll bite...

here's a scenario. you walk into a crowded bar and you really want that special seat in the corner. you woke up extra early to get it, and you just have to sit there.  upon approaching the seat, you see a half empty beer glass with a coaster on top. the waitress politely informs you that someone is sitting there and just stepped out for a moment.  do you:

a) steal their seat because you think you have "equal rights" to it
b) move along and find somewhere else to sit
c) when the person returns, ask them to share their seat and if they refuse, sit on their lap
d) offer to buy my mom a drink after the horrible session you and your "pet rock" gave to her?

first come, first served. crags work the same.

Except one is a public space, other is not. Why would you wanna sit on someone’s lap in any scenario?

Yes, you should be polite.
Yes, you should climb harder.
Yes, you should approach the 'group leader' and engage a dialogue.

No, you shouldn't have to.  A rope on a route is not a reservation of that route.  Not in CA, not in WY, not in NH, NC or WV or anywhere else.  The fact that so many people are saying "just go talk to them" or "leave" and not pointing out that this occurrence is pretty regular now, is a sad testament to the state of things.  It's one thing if it's one route.  NBD.  Hop on something else.  But if it's multiple routes and no one's climbing anything, that's just nonsense.  If I have more than 2 people on a route, or if I'm top roping something and I see a party of two come up and eyeball the route, I offer to pull my rope as long as they agree to hang it back up when they're done.  This used to be the norm, now it's not.  Now it's "tough shit" and "get stronger" and "we were here first" that has replaced the unspoken, polite and generally adhered to principle that leaders take priority.  I realize I sound like a curmudgeon.  I don't care.  If it was once in a while, I wouldn't say anything, but this shit is rampant.

I'm not saying don't be polite and engage the group in friendly dialogue.  I'm not saying not to train and get stronger so you can warm up on routes that are above the guided neophyte level.  By all means, do that.  What I'm saying, is that it's a general flaw in the way outdoor ethics have evolved into thinking that a rope hanging through an anchor with no one climbing reserves a route indefinitely.  It was bullshit two decades ago, and it's bullshit now.  Some people will be polite and have some sense of the importance of sharing a resource with smaller parties.  Others act like they own it.  It's the latter that I have a problem with, and from my experiences, that group seems to be growing.  Not calling that out, and not making an attempt to dispel this sense of entitlement is a mistake, and it's exactly why the problem is becoming more pervasive.

If I'm at a crag to top-rope that means I am probably going for a bunch of mileage. I have engaged groups by being friendly and offering to share top-ropes with them. That way we all save time from having to build fewer anchors and I can get more climbing done! Most of the time, a large group isn't climbing a whole lot because they are new and get tired easily and take time between climbs to have instruction from the guide.

Also if a group sets up a TR and isn't using it, I've never had one refuse if I asked to pull their rope so I could lead the climb and put the rope back up when I'm done.