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Route Manufacturing - opinion survey for article

Kelley Gilleran · · Meadow Vista · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 2,812

Or Gioia V16 where Core filled in a foothold to keep the boulder at the same grade

Jack Quarless · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 0
Kelley Gilleran wrote: Or Gioia V16 where Core filled in a foothold to keep the boulder at the same grade

I already tried to discuss this issue but the ideologues dismissed the information because it didn't fit into the arguments of their ethical crusade.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Sport climbing ethics is like a bunch of mobsters debating the most ethical way to shoot somebody in the head.

Mel Groves · · Boulder · Joined Sep 2018 · Points: 0
the schmuck wrote:

How about chipping holds down to make a route/problem harder?  I know of several boulder problems like that, and it is more common than you may think.

Yeah interesting point. I still have to stand firmly against it though; I don't see a way I could get behind it in one direction and not the other.

Also, it's still changing the shape of a rock to fit what they think would be a good climb. Who is authorized to create a climb that is any good? Could I come along and chip it so that it climbs differently? Would they try to modify it again once I'm done? Who is to say the climb has been chipped to perfection? Will we need route setters for rock now? You could never share beta about a climb when you don't know when's the last time someone chipped it.

Better to leave it as it is. At least, no one can point fingers for bad setting or complain that a route needs to be changed because it's awkward/not their style. It would be a disaster. 
bus driver · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 1,516

If chipping is bad, How bad is retro chipping?

Lena chita · · OH · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,667
PosiDave wrote:

How many people are outraged by vandalism anywhere else in the natural world if they haven’t been there?


Not the same thing, imo. People are using words like vandalism, desecration, ruining the rock...
Well, when I see vandalism, I don’t have to wonder if this is vandalism, or if the graffiti was here naturally, and the statue’s face was always meant to be smashed with a hammer. 

My point wasn’t that one couldn’t be outraged by something unless they had seen it personally. My point was that if one can’t even tell whether something was ruined, or not, by looking at it, one has a lot shakier ground to stand on, in that outrage. 

I still think that deliberately manufacturing holds on blank rock in order to create a route is not ok. And I still stand by my statement that it is obviously different from cleaning that happens during route development. 
You can end up creating a sidepull where there was none when you pry off a loose flake, and you should pry off loose flakes if you are bolting a route, that is an acceptable part of route development. But it is not the same thing as saying, I’d like there to be a sidepull here, let me take a chisel and make one, about 2 inches deep, and with a nice thumb catch, oh, and we would need an opposing foot here, so let’s hammer one out, while we are at it.   
Billcoe · · Pacific Northwet · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 930

SOUNDS LIKE THE TEN SLEEP GUYS ARE LOOKING TO GET SUPPORT FOR THEIR POSITION SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR CONGRESSPEOPLE DRAFT NEW ANTI-TOUCH A CRYSTAL LAW.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Tradiban wrote: Sport climbing ethics is like a bunch of mobsters debating the most ethical way to shoot somebody in the head.

Except mobster types don't debate, they shoot each other. Sometimes they miss and shoot themselves in the foot. We have a few injuries here.


Now I really want to hear more about sculpting the best routes. Will all the pro sculpting climbers step up and let us all know their favorite ways to sculpt? Personally I'd probably use a drill bit first, then throw the chisel bit into the Bosch and jackhammer away.
North Col · · Toronto, CA · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 0
. Mobes wrote:

Except mobster types don't debate, they shoot each other. Sometimes they miss and shoot themselves in the foot. We have a few injuries here.


Now I really want to hear more about sculpting the best routes. Will all the pro sculpting climbers step up and let us all know their favorite ways to sculpt? Personally I'd probably use a drill bit first, then throw the chisel bit into the Bosch and jackhammer away.

i prefer the ol’ dynamite trick 

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205
mel on wrote:

Yeah interesting point. I still have to stand firmly against it though; I don't see a way I could get behind it in one direction and not the other.

Also, it's still changing the shape of a rock to fit what they think would be a good climb. Who is authorized to create a climb that is any good? Could I come along and chip it so that it climbs differently? Would they try to modify it again once I'm done? Who is to say the climb has been chipped to perfection? Will we need route setters for rock now? You could never share beta about a climb when you don't know when's the last time someone chipped it.

Better to leave it as it is. At least, no one can point fingers for bad setting or complain that a route needs to be changed because it's awkward/not their style. It would be a disaster. 

This has happened. Someone breaks a key hold, and that someone or others glue the key hold back on. Then, an offended party not only removes the hold that was reattached, but also erases other, completely natural holds that the offended party feels are unnecessary, or just to make the route harder/less accessible. Then, someone else comes along, and...  These kinds of shenanigans were hardly unheard of during sport climbing salad days of the late 80s to early 90s. 

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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