Mountain Project Logo

New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:
  • Which is pretty much never as compared to 100% killing the patient to learn...
I never said the Dr intentionally killed the patient to learn now did I?
  • Modern Sport Climbing is about taking falls all day and every day all over the country with few accidents per man hour.
One could argue my driving analogy fits here, people drive with few accidents per hr. Often accidents occur without injury. Yet we don't encourage reckless behavior in the interest of "learning"
  • If you don't recognize that you are out of touch and don't understand current practice.

Maybe I am out of touch. But from my perspective "modern sport climbing" is responsible for both over-reliance on the rope and systems and the uptick in injuries and deaths simultaneously with no sign of the trend slowing.

You can dismiss that notion under the "there are more climbers now" argument if you like.

This is why I said I try to stay out of the "falling is good/bad" argument anymore. My analogies were both satirical in nature and in my opinion, sadly true.

I think encouraging Lori on her journey is a great thing. She's started on the path and is injury free thus far. I would hate to think any of us would encourage "safe" behavior outdoors or in the gym that could get her hurt.
Jeffrey Constine · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 674

Fact is if you never fall climbing Trad/Sport/Gym or any type of climbing you are not pushing yourself to improve, just stagnating. 

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148

Every gym I've ever climbed at has a falling portion of the lead test...who knew they would test such things?

  • And you practice for tests....practice falls are not risky when done in a controlled environment. 
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

Jeff.... True! 

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Jeffrey Constine wrote: Fact is if you never fall climbing Trad/Sport/Gym or any type of climbing you are not pushing yourself to improve, just stagnating. 

Jeffrey, if I tried to emulate you? I don't think it'd be pretty. That said, I tried ice climbing post 60, Mr. Its Always Sunny in California Why Can't You Climb as Hard as Me. So there. ;-)

I agree that sport and gyms have changed attitudes, a lot, especially now, with the rise of both. Gym climbers, even strong sport leads, aren't necessarily prepared for outside, particularly in areas with "old school" bolting.

I've seen this first hand, with the major gym closure here. I gave up my climbing time to keep the party of four who showed up at our crag safe. The help was very, very welcome. They just simply had no idea what they were in for.

The "crashing your car" analogy doesn't quite fit, that would be groundfall, to learn how to be comfortable splatting, lol! I would say, going out to a parking lot, first snowfall, and peeling around, skidding (BITD, cars are different now), is a pretty good analogy. That skill, saved my life on a dirt road once, stopping the fishtailing and controlling a spin to not go over the side.

Oh! Rich!! I thought about it....except for bouldering, I haven't fallen for quite a long time, inside or out! Including when I knew I simply was in "no fall" territory. Including new crags,  onsight leading, new gyms, and climbing harder, longer, and more often than ever before.

Best, Helen
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Every gym I've ever climbed at has a falling portion of the lead test...who knew they would test such things?

  • And you practice for tests....practice falls are not risky when done in a controlled environment. 

Hey, I went to a new to me gym recently, two hours from here. They did not have anyone fall for the belay "test". Instead, they had a section of rope on a carabinier near the front desk. They had you taje turns, to tie in, had the "belayer" pull up slack, and yanked on the rope to see if they caught it. That was it. No feet left the ground.

EDIT to add, I didn't ask about the lead test, but Monty Python did come to mind...

Best, Helen
Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240
John Barritt wrote: thing. She's started on the path and is injury free thus far. I would hate to think any of us would encourage "safe" behavior outdoors or in the gym that could get her hurt.

I’m having a good laugh here...just leaving the gym where everything went wrong today. Took a big swinging fall from an overhang, came down, started up a second time, got a hard leg spasm at the same hold on the roof, let go in pain, swung hard and nearly hit my head swinging back on towards the wall—had to brace with my legs.  I immediately thought of this conversation.   

It’s all good. But I couldn’t get the leg spasm to stop (when does it stop?) , tried one more overhung route, swung from that, and said I’m done for the day.  Lots of falling and lots of swinging...I’m sure this is not like a “real fall” but close enough for today. 
I just realized something—kind of hard to confess here. My interest has been so much towards trad climbing that I may have skipped right past thoughts of bolted routes. But I suspect I’ll catch the magic when I’m finally climbing them.
Besides getting back to the desert for more focused learning and climbing my thoughts are already on summer and that granite range up in Soda Springs/Truckee that looked pristine and untouched and aching to hike back there and see what’s really there.  There’s a lake on the other side...for cooling off from all that climbing.   
Is everyone ready for spring and summer? Got plans? I’m really done with weeks of rain...
(It’s the orange route, Harumpster knows it I’m sure). 
Jeffrey Constine · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 674
Summer in Japan!! My plan.
Jeffrey Constine · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 674
Good driving Helen. For you.
Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Jeffrey Constine wrote:
Good driving Helen. For you.

You have so many great photos! I've not come close to anything like this. Playing with the cops on their high speed training track was fun, though. Other than that, being the "victim" for various training operations, impalement being the best...

The rest of the time...the old lady who works in a library, with an overgrown garden and too many cats.

Who loves to climb.

Best, H.
Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

I've commented on this elsewhere in the forums. Last summer, after 20 years of climbing, I took Arno Ilgner's falling clinic. It was revelation. "The Rock Warriors Way" re-frames falling as a discipline. He proposes that it is a skill, developed with practice, over time, similar to martial arts training. The rest of the discussion, like where you can, shouldn't, or must not fall is absolutely critical to managing risk. However treating falling as something you just get used to doesn't positively help one's climbing development. I've noticed that since the course and subsequent practice, I'm climbing harder and calmer. I didn't realize how much fear was putting a cap on my performance. I think as an older climber, my natural inhibitions seemed real and seemed like good judgement. And with the amount of time I've been climbing, I had taken plenty of falls, both in the gym and outside (sport climbing). So, imagine my surprise when I learned something new about myself (at 61).
If you have an opportunity to take one of these classes, I strongly recommend it. I think it's particularly valuable for those of us who've started late. Two more bits of anec-data: I did the course with two young guys (mid-20's), one of whom has a decade of climbing experience (mid-12's) and the other has only a couple of years (mid-11's). Both of them were shocked that it was so useful.

dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 847

Speaking of gym climbs: I attacked the pink route multiple times, today.

As a reminder, here's a link to the original post. And here's a link to the post with the previous video.

In this video, I was able to get higher, moving up onto the second rail. I used Pacman's mouth to move up. It worked, but it's not easy. In case you can't tell from the way I'm shaking, these moves are incredibly difficult for me:
The route has been graded. It's a 10d. Oh, that's why I can't do it!   

Another climber offered to belay me on this, so I was able to spend some time trying that section in different ways. It turns out that if I put my left foot on hold #10 (just up and right of Pacman), the layback feels pretty solid. Unfortunately, getting my left foot up there is extremely difficult; I can't even recall how I did it anymore. In the video, I use my right foot on that hold, and it's tenuous; I'm sort of flagging out. Terrible form.

I have been told that the crux is where I fall off in the video, moving off the second rail and onto the holds at the right.

I don't think I'm going to get this one clean before they take it down. The good news is, I "onsight flashed" a 5.8. That's my second "onsight" of a 5.8 at this gym (top-rope onsight, that's a thing, right?). Either I'm getting stronger, or they're grading softer.

I wonder if any of this will translate to outdoor climbing, when the snow finally clears out. I think it will help at Rumney (sport), maybe not so much for trad.

wendy weiss · · boulder, co · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10

Nice work, dragons. Hope lives on the pink route. If there's a next time, maybe try putting your right foot on hold #11 and turning your right hip in. I think you can get it.

Harumpfster Boondoggle · · Between yesterday and today. · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 148

Back step that Pac Man's mouth and the next time you move up your left foot too.

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083


I don't think I'm going to get this one clean before they take it down. The good news is, I "onsight flashed" a 5.8. That's my second "onsight" of a 5.8 at this gym (top-rope onsight, that's a thing, right?). Either I'm getting stronger, or they're grading softer.

I wonder if any of this will translate to outdoor climbing, when the snow finally clears out. I think it will help at Rumney (sport), maybe not so much for trad.

You'll get it, don't ignore the hold up and left. That gets you back to the right. It will stabilize the lay back then you can push off it while reaching for the hold out right above the lay back.

This type of climb will definitely help outdoors.

Ignore the grade.......
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60

@dragons. John's right.  Ignore the grade and focus on your feet.  It's kind of obvious where it starts getting hard because you appeared over concerned with your next handhold but completely forget your left foot.  Find a foothold (or two) to,spread your weight and your arms will have to work that much less.

dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 847

wendy - "try putting your right foot on hold #11 and turning your right hip in". That is an interesting idea. I will try it. Hopefully I can get a belay on that again next time, so I can try several things while hanging.

Harumpfster Boondoggle - "Back step that Pac Man's mouth and the next time you move up your left foot too".
Here's the moment when my foot is on Pacman's jaw:
https://youtu.be/Cszr0L6rFWc?t=33
The following time, I managed to get my left foot up onto hold #10; I think maybe I did it with a backstep. I'll try to get footage of that (pun!).

John - "don't ignore the hold up and left". I asked a couple of people why that hold was there. Response was that it was a foothold for higher up. I'm not convinced. I did see a guy do the route pretty much ignoring it but then why is it there? I didn't think the route setter put it there for no reason, but if that's a handhold, where are my feet supposed to be while I'm reaching for that thing? Is it my left or right hand on it? I'm having a hard time picturing this.

Fat Dad - "It's kind of obvious where it starts getting hard because you appeared over concerned with your next handhold but completely forget your left foot." Can you expand on that?

Was it here? There are no footholds to the left here.

Or here? Still no left footholds. Might be difficult to see because there are some orange holds that have a similar shade.
Or further down, even?

I was definitely having trouble with my left foot as soon as I started moving up onto Pacman's mouth. It's not easy getting up there. Whenever I tried to turn my left hip in towards the wall, this would cause my shoulders to rotate with my left shoulder towards the wall, which would tend to push me off the tenuous hold on that first rail.

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone! I was planning to give up on this, once I learned it's a 10d. I'll keep trying.
Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240

The last time I saw Bob Gaines he described how much he had always hated crack climbing so he took off for Yosemite and spent an entire summer working on cracks. He learned to love them. (Kind of like what I’ve been attempting with beef liver only it’s not working.   )

But that story did capture my imagination and so I sit in a quandary: how could I put together a summer trip to Yosemite? I’ve never been there. I hear it’s quite a feat to be on line at precisely the right moment to reserve a campsite. And then what...gear, navigation, finding partners.  It’s all a little daunting.

Can I enlist your thoughts on this? I’m guessing there are motels outside the park and probably plenty of guides. It still all sounds...HARD. And dicey.

I have fresh appreciation for the work it has taken to walk into J Tree, get to know the place, get to make some friends and feel at home.  But as everyone has said, new places, different rocks, diversify!  

And it wouldn’t hurt if I could catch this dude climbing Magic Line. (Lonnie Kauk, 5.14)

Tom Hickmann · · Bend, OR · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 35

I have a dumb newb question. I climb a lot of sport routes. On two of my last climbs I came across a lot of loose bolts, one of which was actually a scary situation. I understand the difference between a bolt that is a spinner and needs to be tightened (I carry a nut tool just for that situation), versus a situation where the bolt can't be tightened and is loose and flexing. The latter situation is what I came across and it was the anchors. Both bolts loose and flexing. It prompted me to post a warning on MP for that route, but I also searched on what to do to fix the problem. In other words, who do you contact to fix it? And that made me think how do I as a climber contribute to help maintain these routes? I can't imagine that someone is just maintaining these for free. Anyone know if there is a reputable group that helps direct money to maintain these routes?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Tom Hickmann wrote: I have a dumb newb question. I climb a lot of sport routes. On two of my last climbs I came across a lot of loose bolts, one of which was actually a scary situation. I understand the difference between a bolt that is a spinner and needs to be tightened (I carry a nut tool just for that situation), versus a situation where the bolt can't be tightened and is loose and flexing. The latter situation is what I came across and it was the anchors. Both bolts loose and flexing. It prompted me to post a warning on MP for that route, but I also searched on what to do to fix the problem. In other words, who do you contact to fix it? And that made me think how do I as a climber contribute to help maintain these routes? I can't imagine that someone is just maintaining these for free. Anyone know if there is a reputable group that helps direct money to maintain these routes?

http://safeclimbing.org/

Edit: On their "Replacement" page, they state they following:

Help the ASCA prioritize which routes to rebolt! Send your suggestions to greg@safeclimbing.org. Please include the climbing area, route name, approximate number of bolts that need to be replaced, and the date when you saw the poor anchor. 

Send them an e-mail.

This topic is locked and closed to new replies.

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.