A solution for a light-weight belayer and heavy leader while sport climbing
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Since this is a perennial topic, hopefully, this will end up in a FAQ somewhere eventually. When the leader takes a high fall-factor fall and the climbing rope goes taut, in addition to the energy being absorbed by the climbing rope, you get a sequence of events: 1) The belayer gets lifted, absorbing energy 2) The bungee cord gets stretched, absorbing energy 3) The 8mm rope gets stretched, absorbing energy 4) Then everyone comes to a gentle stop without the belayer being smashed into the wall, hitting her head on a roof, flipped upside-down or having her hand and/or belay device jammed into the first clip. Edit: I hung 50lbs (a very significant number if your belayer is around 120lbs) from the bungee and it didn't quite engage the 8mm rope. So a 32" bungee is like gradually adding 50lbs to your belayer. As always, if any member of your team is caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow all knowledge of your actions. |
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John Byrnes wrote: Since this is a perennial topic, hopefully, this will end up in a FAQ somewhere eventually.I weigh 200, my wife is 110. We used to use an old back pack with locally sourced weights (rocks or sand) in it, clipped to the middle of a piece of 15' webbing that was attached to her haul loop, and anchored at the other end. The total length of the webbing would not allow her to be sucked through the first bolt, and the weight in the middle would scrub off most of the energy as she was lifted in the air. Attaching the other end of the webbing is more so the backpack doesn't smack into her after she catches a fall than to prevent her from being lifted. She no longer climbs. |
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Buck Rio wrote: I weigh 200, my wife is 110. We used to use an old back pack with locally sourced weights (rocks or sand) in it, clipped to the middle of a piece of 15' webbing that was attached to her haul loop, and anchored at the other end. The total length of the webbing would not allow her to be sucked through the first bolt, and the weight in the middle would scrub off most of the energy as she was lifted in the air. Attaching the other end of the webbing is more so the backpack doesn't smack into her after she catches a fall than to prevent her from being lifted. I've used the rocks-in-the-pack method too. It's not nearly as good, IMHO. Edit: First, you dump out her pack into the mud/cactus/talus/path. Then you search, find, carry a bunch of rocks to the base of the route and put them in the pack. All good for the first route. Now, the second route is 200ft down the cliff. Do you carry the 50lbs of rocks over there in the pack? Or dump them out and find new rocks? If you carry, how do you get all her stuff you dumped on the ground over to the base of the new route? And do you just leave piles of rocks at the base of every route you do? And that's only the first few drawbacks... |
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Don't like the "attached to haul loop" approach. More awkward but ultimately safer to attach to belay loop. |
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Eric Engberg wrote: Don't like the "attached to haul loop" approach. More awkward but ultimately safer to attach to belay loop. We're talking single pitch sport climbing here, not wilderness multi-pitch. The falls aren't going to be gigantic. You can certainly accomplish the same thing using the belay loop. It causes less of a cluster-fuck to have it attached to a RATED haul loop in the rear. I personally would not attach anything to a non-rated haul loop other than a chalk bag. |
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John Byrnes wrote: I agree, but I am not nearly as inventive as you. This introduces another piece of shit I need to remember to bring to the crag...doesn't matter now, she quit climbing and all of my current partners are closer to my weight. I am wondering if you took a piece of tubular webbing and incorporated the rubber inside of it, like an ice ax tether, if it wouldn't look so homemade. You would lose the dynamic nature of the rope, but maybe just beef up the rubber some. |
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I've done wilderness multi pitch and roadside sport. The falls in sport are much longer unless you're doing something wrong. |
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Eric Engberg wrote: Don't like the "attached to haul loop" approach. More awkward but ultimately safer to attach to belay loop. If you don't like the haul loop approach, girth hitch a sling to the back of the harness. Sorry, belay loop is not safer. If you attach any anchor to the belay loop, and it's not in the perfect position, it'll cause the belayer to flip upside down and/or "spin" around the rope totally out of control possibly hitting the wall, getting a leg caught in the anchor-webbing, etc. |
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highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: I've done wilderness multi pitch and roadside sport. The falls in sport are much longer unless you're doing something wrong. That is a great observation, I don't fall in the backcountry, so all of my sporty falls are longer by definition. Anything you can call a fall that I've taken trad climbing was more of a "skid" or a maybe a take with some slack or a slump onto the rope. I find I stay breathing longer doing that. |
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or just feed them a sandwich. |
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Buck Rio wrote: I am wondering if you took a piece of tubular webbing and incorporated the rubber inside of it, like an ice ax tether, if it wouldn't look so homemade. You would lose the dynamic nature of the rope, but maybe just beef up the rubber some. Yes, if I had some stretchy tubular material, the bungee and rope would go inside it. A commercial version would probably look like that, or perhaps even more sophisticated. However, I just used materials I had around the house and ones that most other climbers would also have on hand. |
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Neat Idea, John. I will have to make one for my lighter weight climbing partners. Having the bungie tacked inside a piece of Tubular webbing does seem like an improvement. Something like what they use on some simulated free fall devices. https://headrushtech.com/quickflight-free-fall/ |
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John Byrnes wrote: Still disagree - yes you have to stand/sit in a more awkward position but when you have the tie in on the back of your harness you are going to get ping-ponged back and forth between the yank on the belay loop and the yank in back. Need to be very conscious of keeping all slack out of the system but that negates the advantages of giving an active belay. And even after the initial yanking is done you will end up suspended off the ground with 50-100 pounds hanging off the back of your harness. Try rapping that way. You don't hang the haul bag off the haul loop when you rap with it do you? |
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Eric Engberg wrote: Eric, I've got quite a bit of experience with this set-up, with three different belayers. One of which was an AMGA guide who weighed 100lbs. She had clients up to 250lbs, and she couldn't hold them without an anchor of some sort. She tried the rocks-in-the pack and still got drug across the ground. Her legs were a mess of cuts, gashed and bruises. She hated having the anchor clipped to her belay loop. So...
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I've done ground tethers, rope belayer to a tree, hang weight bags off end belayer, backpack full of rocks. Eventually you'll stop having belayers willing to deal with belaying you as a leader if you keep using solutions that are on the belayer end of the safety chain. They all fall somewhere from very physically demanding on the belayer to extremely painful. Good luck. |
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Edelrid Ohm? |
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Colin J wrote: Edelrid Ohm? I use it a lot in my local gym. It works fairly well, but has drawbacks for both the climber and belayer, mostly to do with it grabbing when you don't want it to. My belayers all like the bungee-tether better. |
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John Byrnes wrote: As the heavy partner, it behooved me to have the belayer (my wife) safe at all times. A heavy backpack is used to scrub some of the energy off before being caught by the tether. I figured we could get her up to about 150 lbs, I weigh 200. Using the backpack and a springy tether would have been ideal. You need to make sure the tether is long enough to let the backpack take the energy without being so long they hit the wall. I also make sure she had her belay gloves on. We never had a GriGri. The fear based musings are funny. Haul loop is much preferred to gear loop, for the reasons stated above. It's not like I am 1000 lbs. and she was never dumped on her head or anything like that. |
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Fat guys must not fall! |
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Tradiban wrote: Fat guys must not fall! Lol...I don't climb in a gym . That is rarely even possible where I climb, and never convenient. But I agree it would be optimal for making sure you get a hard fall. Seriously, I did try this once on a 5.4 route that I could solo to see how it would work. There is a 4 ton boulder I slung, attached a tuber directly to it and then had my wife attached with a locker to the webbing. It isn't great, she couldn't move around and it was harder for her to control the device, since she needed to pay out slack. For top roping it would work better, where you are keeping the system taut. I fear it may produce an apathetic belayer though, since they are not in the system. |
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Buck Rio wrote: The belayor is still in the system so they can "control" the belay device but if there's a fall the force goes to the anchor and not the person. Look around, there's always a way, roots, rocks, trees, whatever. |