Tying off a grigri. Can I ask about that?

amarius wrote:

What if the beginner ends up climbing with one the douchebags full of all the wrong ideas? A bit of catch-22 here - beginner climbers don't know much, they can be impressed by anyone with figure 8 belay device and some cow bells hanging off expert's harness. 

Better than being impressed by anyone who can write 1000 words on how to tie a figure 8 knot.

When you're in "it" you will get "it".

Those new to climbing usually ask the best questions. And, as much as any of us do, they know when to walk away and just give something a try that is new-to-them.

Naming the point of becoming overwhelmed is the domain of the individual, especially in that this is no substitute for a carefully organized class.

I'll buy the potential for beginners to get overwhelmed, but what exactly overwhelms them I think is variable. It's not necessarily learning the context and the "when and why behind the what"  that overwhelms them. Sometimes it's just the sheer volume of content to learn. I would guess that this varies from individual to individual.

For example, most of what I know about self-rescue was self-taught with the aid of a self-rescue book. Throughout reading that book, I got overwhelmed with the content a few times, but never was it because of learning pros & cons, nuances, or when to apply what technique. Usually I got overwhelmed when I read more than one chapter at a time without giving myself a chance to practice the material hands-on.

You may also be surprised at what an overwhelmed beginner will remember. I'm still at the stage where I find myself in situations I've never been in before fairly frequently. My solutions are often not best practice, but they are good-enough practice. A lot of it comes from small bits of information garnered from threads like these.

E.g., I used my first leg wrap the other day because it was the quickest option for getting out of a situation in which I was getting poured on in -10degrees. Had I not read about leg wraps on MP, I probably would've been stuck for longer. I've never seen a thread specifically about leg wraps, but they come up in threads like this.

In this thread I learned you should use gri-gris on the opposite side of the gate from where you'd use an ATC. Who knows when that may come up, but I'll file it away for later.

Andy Eiter wrote: You may also be surprised at what an overwhelmed beginner will remember. I'm still at the stage where I find myself in situations I've never been in before fairly frequently. My solutions are often not best practice, but they are good-enough practice. A lot of it comes from small bits of information garnered from threads like these.

E.g., I used my first leg wrap the other day because it was the quickest option for getting out of a situation in which I was getting poured on in -10degrees. Had I not read about leg wraps on MP, I probably would've been stuck for longer. I've never seen a thread specifically about leg wraps, but they come up in threads like this.

In this thread I learned you should use gri-gris on the opposite side of the gate from where you'd use an ATC. Who knows when that may come up, but I'll file it away for later.

There's a difference between regurgitating information and getting lucky and truly understanding what you're doing and how it works.

Tradiban wrote:

There's a difference between regurgitating information and getting lucky and truly understanding what you're doing and how it works.

I understand how leg wraps work, but I probably wouldn't have thought it up on my own in the amount of time for which I'd be getting coated in ice.

Mentors inhibit learning. I would've never been in the position to get myself out of a sticky situation had someone smart been there to stop me from getting into it. Checkmate.

Edit to add: People who don't know what they are talking about contribute quite a bit of value to the learning experience on MP. There's no surer way to get a detailed explanation of why something is right than for someone to explain why the wrong thing is right.

Andy Eiter wrote:I'm still at the stage where I find myself in situations I've never been in before fairly frequently. My solutions are often not best practice, but they are good-enough practice. A lot of it comes from small bits of information garnered from threads like these.

Early on for me, I also learned a lot from a forum like this. Discussions there often led to discussions with climbing and non-climbing friends and family (not all at once), and on to actual application sometimes in a controlled setting and simetimes not.

John long made a case that many times what we want is “Good enough” (my words).  And continuous improvement is definitely part of our days.
I know there is a temptation to go down the path of “If you can’t do it right, do not do it at all.” Except none of us would have been born and raised by or parents if they had waited until they could do it “right.”

Of course, the real bottom line in this sport is to not get killed or worse in the process. Understandingly, that is the source of all the surrounding hand wringing.

Andy Eiter wrote: Mentors inhibit learning.

Quite the opposite.

Andy Eiter wrote:

I understand how leg wraps work, but I probably wouldn't have thought it up on my own in the amount of time for which I'd be getting coated in ice.

Mentors inhibit learning. I would've never been in the position to get myself out of a sticky situation had someone smart been there to stop me from getting into it. Checkmate.

You should have never have needed to leg wrap in the first place. It's a completely emergency (or half ass) maneuver that will grant you an unpleasant surprise in the future. 

Unfortunately these forums steer the noobs to a very boxed in way of thinking. A leg wrap should be obvious if you have the right mindset. "Fake it until you make it" will kill you or someone around you in climbing.

Dump the ATC and get a better rap device.

Tradiban wrote:

You should have never have needed to leg wrap in the first place. It's a completely emergency (or half ass) maneuver that will grant you an unpleasant surprise in the future. 

You don't know what the situation was, so can you really say whether or not the added risk of leg wrapping was worth it?

Unfortunately these forums steer the noobs to a very boxed in way of thinking. A leg wrap should be obvious if you have the right mindset.

Do they? Does learning solely from one other person steer noobs to a very "this is THE right way to do things" way of thinking?

Dump the ATC and get a better rap device.

I appreciate the credit you're giving me in assuming that the rap device was the problem and not something way more dumb (it was dumb).

@FrankPS
Ope sorry, that whole paragraph there was supposed to be overtly facetious.

Andy Eiter wrote: @FrankPS
Ope sorry, that whole paragraph there was supposed to be overtly facetious.

Sorry I didn't pick up on that. Mea culpa.

Andy Eiter wrote: You don't know what the situation was, so can you really say whether or not the added risk of leg wrapping was worth it?

Because it's never worth it. Leg wraps will slip unexpectedly, sure old school with an ATC it might be all you got but you should be backed up with a prussik or something.

Do they? Does learning solely from one other person steer noobs to a very "this is THE right way to do things" way of thinking?

Not from one person per se, people need to learn in real life, NOT on the internet.

I appreciate the credit you're giving me in assuming that the rap device was the problem and not something way more dumb (it was dumb).

10-4. So, what was the problem then?

Legs wraps don't slip at all if you know a trick or two...after you make the leg wraps, drop a loop of rope over your head and shoulder to keep the rope hanging below from pulling the wraps down your leg.  I've used 'em for years and they are totally bomber, notably more secure than an autoblock on a rappel, which has some tricky failure modes.  In terms of the original question, leg wraps are a better solution than a catastrophe knot too.

rgold wrote: Legs wraps don't slip at all if you know a trick or two...after you make the leg wraps, drop a loop of rope over your head and shoulder to keep the rope hanging below from pulling the wraps down your leg.  I've used 'em for years and they are totally bomber, notably more secure than an autoblock on a rappel, which has some tricky failure modes.  In terms of the original question, leg wraps are a better solution than a catastrophe knot too.

Just in case we're concerned about one person steering someone the wrong way, I'll add a +1.  :)

rgold wrote: Legs wraps don't slip at all if you know a trick or two...after you make the leg wraps, drop a loop of rope over your head and shoulder to keep the rope hanging below from pulling the wraps down your leg.  I've used 'em for years and they are totally bomber, notably more secure than an autoblock on a rappel, which has some tricky failure modes.  In terms of the original question, leg wraps are a better solution than a catastrophe knot too.

Ya sure, wrap yourself up in rope, sounds like a great plan!

As Richard mentions, finishing the leg wrap is part of the picture. And besides the finishing method he mentions, one can bring the brake strand up and clip it to rope above the rap device.

...or just to a harness belay loop.  But the situation called for a truly minimalist solution and I didn't want to introduce a carabiner.

Tradiban wrote:

Unfortunately these forums steer the noobs to a very boxed in way of thinking.

I think that depends on the individual. Not every “noob” uses MP as their only resource or mentor and blindly follows what people post or belive it to be the gospel.

I’ll admit MP plays an important role in my own devlopment as a climber, along with a schedule at the climbing gym, training with my partners whom all climb better than i do, reading other books on the subject, watching other climbers, practicing ropework, asking questions sometimes even some that seem to be crazy etc. 
Im not going to go print out rgolds “how to get asked out on a 2nd date” thread and try to trad climb this weekend. So guys worry less about the noobs asking questions and more about the value your honest responce has to a beginner.
I learned alot from this thread from diffrent methods of tying off the grigri and the opinions of experinced climbers on those methods, to beiner orentation with the grigri, even learned what a leg wrap is. Thanks guys as always 
North Col

rgold wrote: I don't find a catastrophe knot to be one whit simpler than the carabiner tie-off, so don't buy the K.I.S.S. arguments at all.  Indeed, they become amost ridiculous when the suggested work-arounds for the catastrophe knot's deficits involve prusiks and footloops or having the belayer boink.   Add to that the substantially inferior behavior of the catastrophe knot if the situation arises when a backup is actually needed, and the fact that the carabiner tie-off works for all types of plates, whereas for ATC's the catastrophe knot is even more problematic, and the fact that the catastrophe knot is poorly suited to self-rescue manipulations while the carabiner tie-off is smooth and easy, and the result, at least for me, is a resoundingly clear preference for the carabiner tie-off as not only clearly the simplest solution, but also the most effective option.

But, if ultimate simplicity is the goal, then three or four wraps of the brake strand around the thigh will do the trick.

What about a simple slip knot? It's certainly faster and simpler than a carabiner tie-off and doesn't require any shenanigans if it actually does get sucked into the grigri. I was testing this on a skinny 9mm slippery dry treated rope and even jammed into the grigri while I was hanging from it, I was able to pop the slip knot.

Are there any drawbacks to this, other than the fact it can untie if the dead end of the rope is hanging which can be remedied with a carabiner or overhand (like the standard tie-off method)?

Tradiban wrote: Because it's never worth it. Leg wraps will slip unexpectedly, sure old school with an ATC it might be all you got but you should be backed up with a prussik or something.

Not from one person per se, people need to learn in real life, NOT on the internet.

10-4. So, what was the problem then?

IIRC, I rapped down a rope to build an anchor. I dropped another rope from that anchor to the ground. I continued to rap, but the rope I was on didn't quite touch the ground. I was right next to the rope that did touch the ground, so I attached my backup ATC (two ATCs!) to the other rope and to my harness. I leg wrapped, detached my Prusik, and reattached it to the second rope. I then took off my first ATC and rapped to the ground. Not best practice. I'm gunna die, but I didn't that day. I tried some stuff I had learned about, and I learned more from doing it irl.