New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

Lori Milas wrote: How in hell could you ever KNOW you won’t fall? I don’t know I won’t fall when I’m standing on the ground! It’s all a crap shoot for me. (Yet I have never fallen while climbing and slipped just a handful of times.)

Well, I think survival depends on developing a very good sense of when you might fall.  This is a sense that you refine over time, meaning that you are able to tolerate increasingly insecure situations, but a sense of how solid you are is central to being a safe climber.

The ingredients of that sense for outdoor climbing mostly can't be learned in the gym.  But there is one thing that gym climbing can teach you---if you pay attention---and that is to develop a sense of your "half-way" point in terms of muscular endurance.  When your tank is half-full, you have to think about whether you want to use the remaining energy to get to lower or safer position or use it to push on past the crux.  I think a decent sense of when you are at that half-way point plus the control to make use of the information is a critical skill.

But in many ways that's the easiest component.  Much harder is when you are confronted with situations in which you just might not be able to adhere at all.  There's nothing but experience to help with this, but when top-roping outdoors, I think it worth making a conscious decision about what your approach is going to be:  are you going to focus on success but not falling, or are you going to go all out for the top?  Both are valuable exercises, but going all out all the time may not develop appropriate control mechanisms.
 
In this regard, here's a story from my guiding days long ago.  I had a client who was a high-steel worker.  He was fantastic.  Strenuous and delicate 5.8 straight out of the box, and of course totally acclimated to heights.  Even though he could have been climbing old-school trad 5.10's on his third day out, he wouldn't try and insisted on sticking with the 5.8's, which were not that much of a challenge for him.  I asked him why, and he said that he couldn't go back to high steel on Monday with vestiges of the mental attitude needed to push his limits climbing on Sunday.  I think that speaks to the situation for new trad leaders as well.

One of the problems I keep harping on is that I think folks who go from the gym to a trad crag don't start easy enough. First of all, "easy" trad climbs are much harder than the corresponding easy gym climbs.  I don't think anyone has figured out how to simulate easy/moderate trad climbing indoors.   It's a bit of a different world, and you should get used to it before moving on, at least because many harder climbs have easier unprotected sections and it is just assumed you can deal with that.  And then there is the collection of gym/sport habits that prioritize moving up as the solution to all problems, with an inconsequential fall as the penalty for failure.  That's a potentially disasterous attitude for moderate outdoor trad.  

Find an outdoor level at which you feel very solid, and climb at that level for a while.  It is far harder to ever learn control if you insist on starting out insecure, which is what seems to me to happen with a lot of transitioners.

Roy Suggett wrote: Lori, prior to leading, I believe it is a good idea to hire an experienced guide to teach you how to fall.  You will want to take a couple of clean 10 footers in perfect form before getting on the sharp end. 

Lori, I don't read every post you write, but I don't get the impression that most of your climbing is on steep to overhanging sport routes, which are the safest routes in general to fall on.

Rich G. beat me to it: Prior to leading, You have to learn to climb knowing when you CAN fall.  You have to learn to climb while evaluating at every point in your movement the consequences of a fall.  Experienced leaders do this in less than a second, it just takes a glance or just awareness of your body.  On most low angle to vertical (either trad or older, sparsely bolted face) routes (which is my impression of what you do), falling is unpleasant to nasty at best, injurious or worse at other times, because you fall and slide on or hit rock, rather than (on steep sport) falling mostly through air.

And then, once you know where you CANNOT fall when leading, you actually have to NOT fall at that spot.  This takes a completely different set of mental skills than seconding.

What Roy is talking about, knowing how to fall safely after you know it is safe to fall, mostly applies to sport routes.  I've taken plenty of falls, long and short, on trad routes where I didn't get injured, but I wouldn't describe many of them as "clean".  

One exercise one could do, and I'm not suggesting you do it, is to climb as a second or toprope a route with a couple feet of slack in the system.  You'll be a heck of a lot more likely to hesitate and look down at what you might hit before doing a move you are uncertain about.  And if you find yourself reluctant to move even when you feel fairly confident about the move, that's the mental aspect of leading.  Even if you are "certain" about a move, if you are 20 feet or more runout, you might even climb in a different style than when you have good gear. I call this "climbing as if I'm soloing" when I do it.

Tim Schafstall wrote:

2) Is situational.  For example, this is a bad thing to do on overhanging sport climbs (and probably trad also).  It will propel you outward from the rock so that you will then pendulum back into the rock with force, especially if you do not get a soft catch.i

You are correct, in that the situation is with:  1) A new leader, and more importantly, 2)  Someone who ( note the title of this/these threads) will not heal quickly IF they fall badly.  And oh by the way Lori, skip the shorts to prevent the superficial stop climbing injuries (older guy talking here).

Old lady H wrote:

Rich? I'm gonna pick on you, just a bit... 

You won't be the first...

In your long career, have you never fallen? All of what you said is true...yet. Falls do happen. And no, there is no guarantee you will not fall, and, it may be when you least expect it.

Of course I've fallen.  But saying "there is no guarantee" could mean that you abandon what I think should be a long and intensive effort to acquire an objective sense of your own security.  And falliing "when you least expect it?"  No---the only way that should happen is if a hold that really isn't suspect breaks anyway.  Otherwise you're in trouble and don't know it, and that is a bad place to be.

And there's the problem. Rich, you practiced catching falls, in a structured and comprehensive way that no longer exists for most climbers. To be a good belayer, you need to have caught people. To learn that, it helps to take some falls yourself.

Don't really buy that Helen.

And that's the other problem in this discussion. Lori is talking gear leading (I believe) without ever doing any sport climbing, inside or out. Yes, you can do that, certainly, but it means being a follower and that has some real peril also. If you have never fallen, even on top rope in a gym, do you truly "get" how a pendulum can bite you? Wanna find out, outside???

I seriously doubt any gym situation will give you even a clue about how bad a pendulum can be leading or following.  And part of my point is that sport climbing can be counterproductive for trad leading.

In this day, doing mock leading, clipping rope to draws in the gym, is a fairly safe way to start learning to pay attention to the rope. Leading in a gym, and belaying a leader in the gym, falls included, teaches the sort of things that she should know, even if she only wants to lead gear outside.

I never said anything against mock leading, which I think is an excellent idea.  I don't think there's much the matter with leading in the gym, as long as you don't get the idea that leading outside on moderate trad has outcomes just as inconsequential, an idea, from what I've seen, that seems to have some currency.

Or, go somewhere they have drop towers. Rich, almost all of us, have live bodies on the other end, not weights. It's how most learn. Best to do that in as controlled a situation as you can manage, perhaps?

Helen, you can't seriously be saying that Lori should practice falling to provide cannon fodder for belayers who need experience!  But you've misunderstood my point if you think the need to belay bodies rather than weights has something to do with whether a beginner should desensitize themselves to falling outside by taking a bunch of falls where all the bad things that can happen are not present.

I’m really touched by all these comments.  They mean a lot.

Padawan.   What an endearing name. Harumpster you may have unwittingly given me my own moniker. It’s how I feel in this journey of climbing: an apprenticeship learning great things and magic. Thank you.

Rgold...Bob Gaines and I have talked about falling many times and he’s in total agreement with you.  He feels intentional falling is foolish, but also, since it’s “intentional” it still isn’t the real deal. He sure doesn’t want me falling, practice or otherwise. (Because I’ve asked!) In fact, of the  times I’ve been out with him now, he’s just cautious. I have never struggled or thrashed  on a climb under his care. If I’m not in control, he’ll call me down. And yet, progressively I have picked up skill and strength but not with much flash. So now on to anchors and lead classes, under his tutelage I’m sure it will be thorough and not a lot of thrill...just learning from the ground up (literally).

It will be a long time before I’m on an overhang outside so any falls would be on rock...knees, belly, arms, head.
Maybe Senor will chime in here...any chance I could take a whipper on any climb at my level in J Tree?

So, now that I think of it this has been an ongoing apprenticeship where I’ve gained  a little more skill and freedom with every outing. On this next trip I will be taking Bob’s 2-day anchors class with another guy from his outfit.  That’s a prelude to his lead class which is ALL mock leading.  I was surprised to learn that at no time does Bob allow a client to lead. (Nelson, however, would.)

You have many times cautioned me...or to the equivalent of “Hey, slow down and enjoy the journey!” It’s sometimes hard to remember this in my exuberance when everything looks so fun and inviting to grab the moment of wonder right where I’m at. But there’s nothing fun (for me) of an adrenaline rush that comes from having pushed way past my limit and realizing I’m at risk. As Alex Honnold said “If I’m feeling an adrenaline rush that means something has gone horribly wrong.”

I want to thank you for the consistent reminders not to rush ahead for ego’s sake. 
———-
As for the gym...would you believe that BOTH gyms in town now require a “comfortable 10c/d”. I’m close but I know I’m not quite there. I periodically ask. Lately the answer has been “almost “. So, patience, young Jedi.

phylp wrote:

Lori, I don't read every post you write, but I don't get the impression that most of your climbing is on steep to overhanging sport routes, which are the safest routes in general to fall on.

gesting you do it, is to climb as a second or toprope a route with a couple feet of slack in the system.  You'll be a heck of a lot more likely to hesitate and look down at what you might hit before doing a move you are uncertain about.

Thinking on your words: I’ll have to pay closer attention in March when I’m back out there. With a few early exceptions I don’t think I’ve ever relied upon a top rope, never hung, certainly don’t feel hauled up a route on a tight belay. Therefore maybe some slack wouldn’t hurt. 
As we talk about this I realize that I love climbing so much...like a kid in a candy store...we have a hard time getting back to the car because I’m forever pointing at rocks and routes saying “What’s that? What’s that over there? Can we climb that?”     It will be hard to chill for awhile and not climb everything I see while we study and begin the art of leading. I hope I can do some of each.
So many rocks. So little time.   

Lori, lots of solid advice up thread!

Falling- a big subject. RG is so spot on with his do not fall advice. Back in the mountains it’s pretty unthinkable, low angle falls on easy ground will kill you- all that tumbling and banging around.

And the half tank of gas is a must to understand. One must know when to down climb to a rest spot- to rest and get it together- or to know when you can GUN it and climb up to that spot above you where you can hopefully find that rest- if the rest spot doesn’t work you down climb back to the rest-you hope!

Roy S is correct about practice falling. BITD you bouldered hard and popped off and maybe made a good landing. That was how one got the feel of flying and landing gracefully.

If you toprope have belay let the rope hang down around your knees, try as hard as you can. At some point you will fall for real.

Go and climb steeper stuff, it is more scary for sure but far safer. Get the josh guide and go sport climbing at New Jack City for a day. Tons of good fairly steep climbing in the 5.8 range that is well bolted, learn to lead on that. Having to pass test on 10c is rubbish IMHO. Lots of good leaders can’t lead 5.9 and some are guides!

Most of all, keep at it, this will take time. 

Lori,

My other outdoor lead (or outdoor bouldering) advice is to come up with a series of rules for yourself and DON'T break them. My two real injuries from falls came from breaking those rules, and two other situations that could have ended REALLY badly and didn't also arose because of violations of the rules that I set for myself. I have vowed never again! Examples of self-preservation rules I violated: 1. Never skip bolts unless clipping them would create rope drag. 2. Bail safely and with direction from a climb if you develop any lack of confidence in your belayer's ability to catch a lead fall. 3. Never boulder outdoors w/o a spotter. 4. Never climb mixed routes with trad gear that go past vertical even if graded easy (I just don't place enough trad gear to be efficient in situations like that-- know thyself!). I have been around one soloing death and one rappel-related death. Lead and other non-TR stuff outdoors is real. Examples of other rules that I have yet to violate include the following: Backclipping or Z-clipping is serious . Fix it! Your onsight or redpoint is blown if one of those things happens-- accept it. If you don't comprehend the line and the clipping stances from the ground, don't get on the damn thing. Serious ground fall potential (particularly from the greatly feared bolt #2) can and should be avoided by stick clipping when possible.

Mark O

Guy Keesee wrote: Lori, lots of solid advice up thread!

Falling- a big subject. RG is so spot on with his do not fall advice. Back in the mountains it’s pretty unthinkable, low angle falls on easy ground will kill you- all that tumbling and banging around.

Go and climb steeper stuff, it is more scary for sure but far safer. Get the josh guide and go sport climbing at New Jack City for a day. Tons of good fairly steep climbing in the 5.8 range that is well bolted, learn to lead on that. Having to pass test on 10c is rubbish IMHO. Lots of good leaders can’t lead 5.9 and some are guides!

Most of all, keep at it, this will take time. 

My other outdoor lead (or outdoor bouldering) advice is to come up with a series of rules for yourself and DON'T break them. 

Thanks, Guy... and Mark (and all).   I'm still so much an apprentice... this advice is so appreciated.

Mark... I have yet to make up any 'rules'... except to follow my gut.  But even that is not a good rule, because I would have passed up some great climbs if I trusted only my emotions.  I'll work on rules.    Maybe the best one, right now, is to not push.  I love rgold's gas tank rule... to know where that halfway mark is.   I'm learning that mostly indoors... where I have to decide whether to drop/hang on a route, or move through it.  It's a safe place to learn to guage energy reserves.  Today I will be working on a 10c that has a steep roof, and I've watched some others try to climb it... they get stuck on that roof... and wear out.  My goal is to find a way to have some energy to spare by the time I get there, and then move through that roof quickly, or drop and let it go.  But I don't know when I will need to watch my gas tank outside, because I haven't yet attempted anything so strenuous that it presents a physical challenge.  (unless crazy aching calves count on that slab).  (well... and diabetes.  Now THAT requires some forethought and engineering... )

Guy... so New Jack City is where all the sport routes are?  Bob helped write a book on sport routes in J Tree and he says there are hundreds.  Will check that out.  Thank you!  

As for the gym(s)... I'm ok with the rules.  No one has said I shouldn't head outside and learn sport climbing there.  But the routes in PW are all set for 10's.  

The  other day I climbed a 10c that was at my limit, and someone commented "You made that look effortless."  That's what I'm after right now... some control, skill.  The rest is on its way...  

Rich, we are still in agreement, here. My basic point, was that you had the opportunity to practice catching falls in a way that most of us don't.

That Lori has said she has never fallen? To me, it might​ be good to have that happen in a gym. Sport lead in the gym, not to desensitize (and yes, that's a huge producer of overconfidence in young climbers) but to get experience with that rope. Rope management, at either end of the rope. A lead rope is not the same as a gym top rope, even if you are top roping on your own rope. Letting go and being lowered, with a tensioned rope, isn't the same as a fall on a dynamic rope with some slack in the system.

All of that, makes you a better belayer, IMO.

Lori, and all of us, have one huge ​plus, that many young transitioning to outside climbers lack: everyone of us, is very keenly aware of the deadly dangerous nature of our fun. Every one of us has had plenty of opportunities to learn how quickly life takes turns.

Lori, you dont have to take the lead test, to start off. Climb on top rope, and clip draws with a second rope, full length so you're dragging weight. It quickly becomes the rope you pay attention to, and worry about what a fall would be like, before that next clip, etc, lol!

And Rich? I'm falling pretty often in the gym. Belay tests for new people require that sacrificial meat hucked off the wall "unexpectedly". I volunteer. 

But, I've been dumped inside, on spinners, and the first time I bumped into those evil slick things, that can only be used as pinches, not for feet. Outside, holds have broken, or been loose and moved. And then there was the gear I tried to French free on, and pulled. A very unexpected fall, gear and lead at the same time! But yes, usually, one knows you are going to come off, or might. And, a decision to go, or not, or down climb, is made. 

I'll second all of what you have said. All of it I agree with, and it can be practiced. The only part I would add, is for Lori to have some falls on a dynamic rope, inside, with a sharp belayer, before she's outside leading. It's a much longer fall, and, for me anyway, knowing that makes me more cautious outside, not less, climbing and belaying both.

Lori, if you are climbing at that grade with no falls, you are really doing well! Have a great time with the course. That, sounds perfect!

Best, Helen

The gym-to-crag-to-gym-trad-sport ping pong in this discussion is getting me dizzy......

I try to avoid the "falling is bad/falling is good" argument these days. Old school ground up ethics are hard to teach when rope-dependence is the new norm.

Learning to climb is more important than learning to fall.

Nowhere else in life is failure so highly coveted as a fast track to success than in climbing. If you apply the modern logic of falling and it's context in relation to climbing and being beneficial or good to other sports of life situations it looks like this:

Driving: "Crashing your car a lot will make you a better driver"

Dirt bike riding: "I don't really get warmed up until I crash a few times"

Carpentry: "Smashing your thumb will make you better at carpentry, in fact, I take a few warm-up thumb-smashes every morning to get my head right"

Medicine: "Killing a few patients has made me a way better Dr in half the time"

Smoking: "I had to set My hair and the couch on fire a few times before I got really good at smoking"

^^^ all really poor analogies.

@Lori all the lead test routes at PW are closer to 10a than real deal 10c and easier than many, many outside trad 5.9s...its a reasonable standard as that level of fitness is easily approachable in a gym.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^ all really poor analogies.

How so John? 

^^^that ie killing patients vs taking a safe plop off some sport route is not comparable should be patently obvious.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^that ie killing patients vs taking a safe plop off some sport route is not comparable should be patently obvious.

One would have to agree with that logic under the assumption that the "safe plop" doesn't (or could never) end with the belayer, (the Dr in my story) dropping the climber (the patient in my story) on his/her head, breaking his/her neck and killing him/her dead.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^ all really poor analogies.

@Lori all the lead test routes at PW are closer to 10a than real deal 10c and easier than many, many outside trad 5.9s...its a reasonable standard as that level of fitness is easily approachable in a gym.

Which shows what a good climber you are... and how much more work I have yet to do.     Whatever the grade in reality, at PW I'm not quite there.  I haven't fought that requirement, because I can see that it's all i can do just to get up those routes--and what's the point of trying to add in yet another task if this is still a struggle.  I'm not in a big hurry--I'm really trying to take one day at a time and learn what I can and to TRUST that the time will one day soon be right to add in leading.  

That green route that you thought was soft (it's still there) is a total enigma to me.  It's pretty cool to think that you and others climb it so easily... so it can be done... and the learning is all mine to do.    

This is one of those ventures where the minute I start looking at what others can do and comparing my progress, I can get pretty down on myself.  It's gotta be just me... on me, however long it takes, however far I get. 

-------------------

John, you speak of the speed at which we newbies are trying to get seaworthy (or rock worthy   ),  And part of that seems to be the discussion on 'learning to fall' so as to get that chore out of the way and continue to press forward.  Lost in 6000 posts is my opining about the opportunities missed in not learning to climb 'naturally'... as a kid, or a young adult hanging out in parking lots, out playing in Yosemite over endless summers with packs of other climbers... or wherever...  And now, staring at this PROJECT of learning to climb, for me at 65, with little strength and no past experience and weird phobias...   --and I wish I could just check off a list, but I don't think it can be done by a book, after all.  I like your analogies--or what I THINK you are saying: this art of climbing can't be rushed, and going at it for the speedy lesson may not be so helpful.  It's only unfolding with time, and experience... probably the same as the kids got it.     

• Belayer screwing up is pretty much never as compared to 100% killing the patient to learn...
• Modern Sport Climbing is about taking falls all day and every day all over the country with few accidents per man hour.
• If you don't recognize that you are out of touch and don't understand current practice.

Lori Milas wrote:
Thanks, Guy... and Mark (and all).   I'm still so much an apprentice... this advice is so appreciated.
Guy... so New Jack City is where all the sport routes are?  Bob helped write a book on sport routes in J Tree and he says there are hundreds.  Will check that out.  Thank you!  

Lori... there are sport climbs in Josh and the new book is pretty good at pointing them out. But the stone found at JT is really textured like 60 grit sand paper! Lots of broken ankles and big road rash happens to people who fly there! 

NJC is about an hour drive from Josh. Steep smooth stone with great protection. I run into many citizens of JT when I climb there. The lower angle stuff is fine climbing with mostly positive holds. Check it out. 
I have known people who get into climbing, are very enthusiastic and they get proficient at leading. Until THAT DAY when they miss a move and take a real fall, pick up some speed and bam! Big time road rash, broken ankle or worse! Go look at Randy’s profile picture.... he is on The Beaver. Ya fall off of that, you only punch a hole in the sky! That is a safe climb, if ya get the gear correct. Roy S might have something to say about broken ankles. Tony is on the cover of one of the best Josh Guide Book you can ever buy. Climbing “Clean n Jerk” another steep climb. I guess what I’m trying to say is this: do not be afraid of steep climbs they are your friend, beware of josh slabs even if Sport climbs. Have fun, March is usually the prime climbing season, much much better than Dec or January! If your lucky you can experience a weather phenomenon. Sometimes you can get the greatest diurnal (sp?) - min to max temperature range found on earth. Get up before dawn.... have coffee in a soon to be sunny spot... and feel temperature go from like 22 to 80 in about 1.5 hours! Have fun

Lori

Do not try to learn to fall in the gym with the rope around your knees. Most gym ropes are not dynamic climbing ropes. They are not designed to stretch enough to absorb impacts. You could get serious internal injuries.

Tim also mention that it is a bad idea to push off when you fall. In trad climbing when you place gear on lead, you never set the piece and try to pull it outward to see if you set it properly. You want to make sure that you set it downward. We were at Seneca Rocks when day when a leader did pull outward on his gear. The piece came out and he catapulted himself out from the wall and decked. It was not a pretty site.

I have taken multiple leader falls. My two longest falls where were one of my feet slipped off the wall. I can still remember thinking that I am falling really far and I hope that I stop before I hit the ground. Both were soft catches since I lifted my belayers off the ground. My wife was one of the belayers and she was tethered in. I still lifted her up so that her feet were off the ground.

John

Screamer of the month 1993 lol. R&I mag.