New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5
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Lori Milas wrote: How in hell could you ever KNOW you won’t fall? I don’t know I won’t fall when I’m standing on the ground! It’s all a crap shoot for me. (Yet I have never fallen while climbing and slipped just a handful of times.) Well, I think survival depends on developing a very good sense of when you might fall. This is a sense that you refine over time, meaning that you are able to tolerate increasingly insecure situations, but a sense of how solid you are is central to being a safe climber. The ingredients of that sense for outdoor climbing mostly can't be learned in the gym. But there is one thing that gym climbing can teach you---if you pay attention---and that is to develop a sense of your "half-way" point in terms of muscular endurance. When your tank is half-full, you have to think about whether you want to use the remaining energy to get to lower or safer position or use it to push on past the crux. I think a decent sense of when you are at that half-way point plus the control to make use of the information is a critical skill.But in many ways that's the easiest component. Much harder is when you are confronted with situations in which you just might not be able to adhere at all. There's nothing but experience to help with this, but when top-roping outdoors, I think it worth making a conscious decision about what your approach is going to be: are you going to focus on success but not falling, or are you going to go all out for the top? Both are valuable exercises, but going all out all the time may not develop appropriate control mechanisms. In this regard, here's a story from my guiding days long ago. I had a client who was a high-steel worker. He was fantastic. Strenuous and delicate 5.8 straight out of the box, and of course totally acclimated to heights. Even though he could have been climbing old-school trad 5.10's on his third day out, he wouldn't try and insisted on sticking with the 5.8's, which were not that much of a challenge for him. I asked him why, and he said that he couldn't go back to high steel on Monday with vestiges of the mental attitude needed to push his limits climbing on Sunday. I think that speaks to the situation for new trad leaders as well. One of the problems I keep harping on is that I think folks who go from the gym to a trad crag don't start easy enough. First of all, "easy" trad climbs are much harder than the corresponding easy gym climbs. I don't think anyone has figured out how to simulate easy/moderate trad climbing indoors. It's a bit of a different world, and you should get used to it before moving on, at least because many harder climbs have easier unprotected sections and it is just assumed you can deal with that. And then there is the collection of gym/sport habits that prioritize moving up as the solution to all problems, with an inconsequential fall as the penalty for failure. That's a potentially disasterous attitude for moderate outdoor trad. Find an outdoor level at which you feel very solid, and climb at that level for a while. It is far harder to ever learn control if you insist on starting out insecure, which is what seems to me to happen with a lot of transitioners. |
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Roy Suggett wrote: Lori, prior to leading, I believe it is a good idea to hire an experienced guide to teach you how to fall. You will want to take a couple of clean 10 footers in perfect form before getting on the sharp end. Lori, I don't read every post you write, but I don't get the impression that most of your climbing is on steep to overhanging sport routes, which are the safest routes in general to fall on. Rich G. beat me to it: Prior to leading, You have to learn to climb knowing when you CAN fall. You have to learn to climb while evaluating at every point in your movement the consequences of a fall. Experienced leaders do this in less than a second, it just takes a glance or just awareness of your body. On most low angle to vertical (either trad or older, sparsely bolted face) routes (which is my impression of what you do), falling is unpleasant to nasty at best, injurious or worse at other times, because you fall and slide on or hit rock, rather than (on steep sport) falling mostly through air. And then, once you know where you CANNOT fall when leading, you actually have to NOT fall at that spot. This takes a completely different set of mental skills than seconding.What Roy is talking about, knowing how to fall safely after you know it is safe to fall, mostly applies to sport routes. I've taken plenty of falls, long and short, on trad routes where I didn't get injured, but I wouldn't describe many of them as "clean". One exercise one could do, and I'm not suggesting you do it, is to climb as a second or toprope a route with a couple feet of slack in the system. You'll be a heck of a lot more likely to hesitate and look down at what you might hit before doing a move you are uncertain about. And if you find yourself reluctant to move even when you feel fairly confident about the move, that's the mental aspect of leading. Even if you are "certain" about a move, if you are 20 feet or more runout, you might even climb in a different style than when you have good gear. I call this "climbing as if I'm soloing" when I do it. |
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Tim Schafstall wrote: You are correct, in that the situation is with: 1) A new leader, and more importantly, 2) Someone who ( note the title of this/these threads) will not heal quickly IF they fall badly. And oh by the way Lori, skip the shorts to prevent the superficial stop climbing injuries (older guy talking here). |
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Old lady H wrote:You won't be the first... In your long career, have you never fallen? All of what you said is true...yet. Falls do happen. And no, there is no guarantee you will not fall, and, it may be when you least expect it.Of course I've fallen. But saying "there is no guarantee" could mean that you abandon what I think should be a long and intensive effort to acquire an objective sense of your own security. And falliing "when you least expect it?" No---the only way that should happen is if a hold that really isn't suspect breaks anyway. Otherwise you're in trouble and don't know it, and that is a bad place to be. And there's the problem. Rich, you practiced catching falls, in a structured and comprehensive way that no longer exists for most climbers. To be a good belayer, you need to have caught people. To learn that, it helps to take some falls yourself.Don't really buy that Helen. And that's the other problem in this discussion. Lori is talking gear leading (I believe) without ever doing any sport climbing, inside or out. Yes, you can do that, certainly, but it means being a follower and that has some real peril also. If you have never fallen, even on top rope in a gym, do you truly "get" how a pendulum can bite you? Wanna find out, outside???I seriously doubt any gym situation will give you even a clue about how bad a pendulum can be leading or following. And part of my point is that sport climbing can be counterproductive for trad leading. In this day, doing mock leading, clipping rope to draws in the gym, is a fairly safe way to start learning to pay attention to the rope. Leading in a gym, and belaying a leader in the gym, falls included, teaches the sort of things that she should know, even if she only wants to lead gear outside.I never said anything against mock leading, which I think is an excellent idea. I don't think there's much the matter with leading in the gym, as long as you don't get the idea that leading outside on moderate trad has outcomes just as inconsequential, an idea, from what I've seen, that seems to have some currency. Or, go somewhere they have drop towers. Rich, almost all of us, have live bodies on the other end, not weights. It's how most learn. Best to do that in as controlled a situation as you can manage, perhaps? Helen, you can't seriously be saying that Lori should practice falling to provide cannon fodder for belayers who need experience! But you've misunderstood my point if you think the need to belay bodies rather than weights has something to do with whether a beginner should desensitize themselves to falling outside by taking a bunch of falls where all the bad things that can happen are not present. |
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I’m really touched by all these comments. They mean a lot. |
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phylp wrote:Thinking on your words: I’ll have to pay closer attention in March when I’m back out there. With a few early exceptions I don’t think I’ve ever relied upon a top rope, never hung, certainly don’t feel hauled up a route on a tight belay. Therefore maybe some slack wouldn’t hurt. As we talk about this I realize that I love climbing so much...like a kid in a candy store...we have a hard time getting back to the car because I’m forever pointing at rocks and routes saying “What’s that? What’s that over there? Can we climb that?” It will be hard to chill for awhile and not climb everything I see while we study and begin the art of leading. I hope I can do some of each. So many rocks. So little time. |
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Lori, lots of solid advice up thread! |
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Lori, |
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Guy Keesee wrote: Lori, lots of solid advice up thread! My other outdoor lead (or outdoor bouldering) advice is to come up with a series of rules for yourself and DON'T break them.Thanks, Guy... and Mark (and all). I'm still so much an apprentice... this advice is so appreciated. Mark... I have yet to make up any 'rules'... except to follow my gut. But even that is not a good rule, because I would have passed up some great climbs if I trusted only my emotions. I'll work on rules. Maybe the best one, right now, is to not push. I love rgold's gas tank rule... to know where that halfway mark is. I'm learning that mostly indoors... where I have to decide whether to drop/hang on a route, or move through it. It's a safe place to learn to guage energy reserves. Today I will be working on a 10c that has a steep roof, and I've watched some others try to climb it... they get stuck on that roof... and wear out. My goal is to find a way to have some energy to spare by the time I get there, and then move through that roof quickly, or drop and let it go. But I don't know when I will need to watch my gas tank outside, because I haven't yet attempted anything so strenuous that it presents a physical challenge. (unless crazy aching calves count on that slab). (well... and diabetes. Now THAT requires some forethought and engineering... ) Guy... so New Jack City is where all the sport routes are? Bob helped write a book on sport routes in J Tree and he says there are hundreds. Will check that out. Thank you! As for the gym(s)... I'm ok with the rules. No one has said I shouldn't head outside and learn sport climbing there. But the routes in PW are all set for 10's. The other day I climbed a 10c that was at my limit, and someone commented "You made that look effortless." That's what I'm after right now... some control, skill. The rest is on its way... |
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Rich, we are still in agreement, here. My basic point, was that you had the opportunity to practice catching falls in a way that most of us don't. |
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The gym-to-crag-to-gym-trad-sport ping pong in this discussion is getting me dizzy...... |
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^^^ all really poor analogies. |
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Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^ all really poor analogies. How so John? |
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^^^that ie killing patients vs taking a safe plop off some sport route is not comparable should be patently obvious. |
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Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^that ie killing patients vs taking a safe plop off some sport route is not comparable should be patently obvious. One would have to agree with that logic under the assumption that the "safe plop" doesn't (or could never) end with the belayer, (the Dr in my story) dropping the climber (the patient in my story) on his/her head, breaking his/her neck and killing him/her dead. |
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Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: ^^^ all really poor analogies. Which shows what a good climber you are... and how much more work I have yet to do. Whatever the grade in reality, at PW I'm not quite there. I haven't fought that requirement, because I can see that it's all i can do just to get up those routes--and what's the point of trying to add in yet another task if this is still a struggle. I'm not in a big hurry--I'm really trying to take one day at a time and learn what I can and to TRUST that the time will one day soon be right to add in leading. That green route that you thought was soft (it's still there) is a total enigma to me. It's pretty cool to think that you and others climb it so easily... so it can be done... and the learning is all mine to do. John, you speak of the speed at which we newbies are trying to get seaworthy (or rock worthy ), And part of that seems to be the discussion on 'learning to fall' so as to get that chore out of the way and continue to press forward. Lost in 6000 posts is my opining about the opportunities missed in not learning to climb 'naturally'... as a kid, or a young adult hanging out in parking lots, out playing in Yosemite over endless summers with packs of other climbers... or wherever... And now, staring at this PROJECT of learning to climb, for me at 65, with little strength and no past experience and weird phobias... --and I wish I could just check off a list, but I don't think it can be done by a book, after all. I like your analogies--or what I THINK you are saying: this art of climbing can't be rushed, and going at it for the speedy lesson may not be so helpful. It's only unfolding with time, and experience... probably the same as the kids got it. |
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Lori Milas wrote: Lori... there are sport climbs in Josh and the new book is pretty good at pointing them out. But the stone found at JT is really textured like 60 grit sand paper! Lots of broken ankles and big road rash happens to people who fly there! NJC is about an hour drive from Josh. Steep smooth stone with great protection. I run into many citizens of JT when I climb there. The lower angle stuff is fine climbing with mostly positive holds. Check it out.I have known people who get into climbing, are very enthusiastic and they get proficient at leading. Until THAT DAY when they miss a move and take a real fall, pick up some speed and bam! Big time road rash, broken ankle or worse! Go look at Randy’s profile picture.... he is on The Beaver. Ya fall off of that, you only punch a hole in the sky! That is a safe climb, if ya get the gear correct. Roy S might have something to say about broken ankles. Tony is on the cover of one of the best Josh Guide Book you can ever buy. Climbing “Clean n Jerk” another steep climb. I guess what I’m trying to say is this: do not be afraid of steep climbs they are your friend, beware of josh slabs even if Sport climbs. Have fun, March is usually the prime climbing season, much much better than Dec or January! If your lucky you can experience a weather phenomenon. Sometimes you can get the greatest diurnal (sp?) - min to max temperature range found on earth. Get up before dawn.... have coffee in a soon to be sunny spot... and feel temperature go from like 22 to 80 in about 1.5 hours! Have fun |
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Lori |
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