Eastside/Bishop poor stewardship guide.

Andrew Potter wrote: Sad how this conversation devolved from its intended purpose. Thanks to those who stayed on topic and stayed positive about finding solutions.

Seems like the newly founded Bishop Area Climbers Coalition should work on a strategy to help solve this problem. I could imagine a team of volunteers who take weekend or holiday shifts walking around popular areas with a recognizable t-shirt or hat, collecting trash and dog crap, advising groups on proper etiquette. As word spreads, maybe they'll even be feared in a positive sense, like mall security guards. Any preemptive method to avoid regulations or closure would be worth the effort.  

If someone knocks on a van window and says "hey, I'm from the Bishop Climbers Coalition. You're illegally parked, which puts this entire area at risk for all of the other climbers who want to enjoy it in the future. Let me show you a map with all the free, legal spots you can camp in the area", chances are they move and respect the regulations. Photo shaming isn't going to work because it gets people riled up for the wrong reasons. 

The people who care have to put in leg work. Talking about it should be a precedent for organization, not just talk that gives detractors and other lazy climbers an opportunity to muddy the water with their apathy. As a Bishop resident, I'm happy to volunteer my time and energy moving forward.

Also, I'm an avid animal lover and 'petter' of all dogs, but I'm not against a dog ban in the climbing areas. I realize how great a good crag dog can be, but every time I climb there's a dog fight, disregarded bags of shit, and dogs roaming off-trail. I recently watched someone walk ahead of their unleashed dog with headphones on in the Buttermilks. The dog took a shit on the trail, and then bounded over bushes off-trail to catch up. Seems like a simple dog ban could save these areas for future climbers. People might get pissed, but they'll get over it. 

This would be AWESOME!!!......in a perfect world

Great. Now we get Brownshirts for neighborhood surveillance...;p...

I don’t necessarily agree with a dog ban. Ultimately dogs aren’t really the large issue at hand.  Bad human = dog that pays the price.

Camping on private property, expanding road widths,pad stashing, Creating parking spots, garbage (including human/dog poop) I feel like are much larger problems then a well behaved dog walking off trail (obviously digging and other things are separate issues).

This is what leads to shitty people getting so called “emotional” support animals to bypass laws that wouldn’t have to exist if people didnt ruin things in the first place.  Nothing against actual support animals, but i know plenty of people who have abused this to bring their untrained dog places. 

Hobo Greg wrote:

And what good does that accomplish? Is the goal to scold someone or to actually affect some positive change? I’m no expert but humans don’t ordinarily respond well to being shamed. Take the IG account “Joshuatreehatesyou”. I see them post the conversations they have with people and every single one of them turns out negative, with some people even doubling down on their negative behavior! So is that what we want?

In the age of #Instafame the best detractor is #Instashame. Nothing wrong about being called out one way or another, those that care will make amends and correct their behavior. 

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

In the age of #Instafame the best detractor is #Instashame. Nothing wrong about being called out one way or another, those that care will make amends and correct their behavior. 

While I think some people won’t change their behavior. Anyone that profits from the outdoor community (employment, sponsors, photographers, etc) will probably back off.

Posting a photo of someone clearly violating a law the jeopardizes access can clearly back fire if people outside the climbing community want to push it we now gave them proof.

Warriors wrote:

 so I can't fathom the hordes of "Spring Break"...good luck.

It is F-ing out of control! The place is a total cluster and I'm amazed it hasn't been regulated yet. I guess its only a matter of time before all the patina on the tablelands is worn through and it exposes the choss that it is and all the boulders in the milks topple because they are perched on a pedestal from people dragging the 40 pads that they have beneath them.

Should be locals only braj.

YGD nawmean?

lou wrote: You can't fix apathy.... or douchebags.....

I mean....you could, but I'm pretty sure forced sterilization stopped being cool in the 70s

PosiDave wrote:

While I think some people won’t change their behavior. Anyone that profits from the outdoor community (employment, sponsors, photographers, etc) will probably back off.

Posting a photo of someone clearly violating a law the jeopardizes access can clearly back fire if people outside the climbing community want to push it we now gave them proof.

I wish this were true. I hope it becomes true. 

I've seen so many brands posting pictures of activities that damage and/or disrespect the environment. Maybe I just recognize it more now. All they want is the 'likes' and to sell their gear. Check out Prana's Instagram post from a week ago - a truck parked at a well known unique and fragile Eastside spot, feet from the waters edge, setting up to camp. To get there the truck drove off-road over a meadow, and the general public's reaction....."How beautiful" and "This is perfection". https://www.instagram.com/p/BtCjy9dhUpU/   I know people camp like this all the time, but to have a brand broadcasting and show-casing the disrespect is saddening. Companies do not care to educate their audience, most aren't even stewards. 

So what can we do? In this day, I think social media shaming IS needed because companies really care about that. Individually, vote with your dollar. 

PosiDave wrote:

The new generation is a lot different from past. This has a lot to do with social media and other things that influences when/where/how they climb. So when a climber rolls up to the Milks and there is no camping in approved areas, their reaction is “I climb here, why not camp here”. 

Previously you read a guidebook or had friends tell you where to camp/tricky access/etc. now a lot of people don’t want to spend $30 on a book let alone drive 20 minutes away from the climbing area. 

The generations, but, more importantly, how they came to climbing, are pretty different.  There are some generalizations you can make about earlier climbers coming from a wilderness ethic and newer climbers coming from a gym and not understanding the distinction between that and the outdoors.  I strongly disagree with the notion that earlier climbers always consulted a guide and never camped where they climbed.  For years, the only info about the Milks was either a cryptic magazine article or the really old Erret Allen Eastside guide, the latter of which most people didn't have.  You showed up, walked around and climbed what looked good and, if you didn't have a place to crash, you overnighted up by the Birthday Boulders or elsewhere off Buttermilk Road.  There is absolutely nothing new about people camping at the Milks.  The only difference is that you have ALOT more people, many of whom haven't spent as much time practicing a low impact camping or dirtbag ethic.

Having said that, I don't believe comparisions about then and now are productive since they appear to just blame the situation on one group or another without taking any steps to fix the problem.  I agree that education is important.  I suppose a deputized person from the coalition could approach folks to educate them.  However, they'll probably be greeted with "F- off" as much as they might follow the advice.  People give you the equivalent of a kiss off when you tell them they're dropping their brake hand.  Imagine the response when they tell them they have to pack up and move.  The Access Fund for years has been telling people that the proliferation of pads is an issue with land managers.  Has anyone listened?  The gyms, who are cranking out new climbers, and the gear companies selling them pads have been notable silent as far as I can tell.  I did see a video with Meagan Martin about transitioning from climbing inside to outside, but it was geared more toward adapting the outdoor environment than adapting to it.  The problem is, while a lot of people care about preserving access to special areas like the Milks, there are many others, likely the ones responsible for most of the issues we're experiencing, that don't.  

OR is going on right now.  This year I'm not there. What I'd like to know is who is there now to bring the corporate advertising problems to the front. Access Fund is there but they have their hands full. Can't count on AAC because theirs is to brand their stoke and get more membership money. At least someone should stop by Prana's booth and find out who needs to hear about it

Also Bishop Area Climbers Coalition is hosting a Town Hall on February 13 Wednesday 6:30 pm at the Into Arts Center. Objective is to discuss access at ORG.  This would be a good place to be to start on a concerted effort for solutions.
https://bishopclimbers.org/events/

Maureen Maguire wrote: OR is going on right now.  This year I'm not there. What I'd like to know is who is there now to bring the corporate advertising problems to the front. Access Fund is there but they have their hands full. Can't count on AAC because theirs is to brand their stoke and get more membership money. At least someone should stop by Prana's booth and find out who needs to hear about it

Problem is that Access Fund is reactive mostly rather than proactive. This is only to be expected as they are only human with full dance cards.

I would think the groups active in ORG, BCC(?) would be the ones to be proactive.

But I really don't know who the players are.

I'd get Katie Lambert and Ben Ditto involved as their social media is already conscious of the issues there.

Now we’ve got companies like prana showing people that this is the way to camp in the eastern Sierra

California has some of the most amazing natural wonders on the planet.  If you want to climb big walls in the valley, ski magnificent couloirs, hike deep for amazing alpine climbing, or get down with world class bouldering - you can generally take your pick of it with less than a five hour drive from anywhere in the state.  The ease of access, the speed at which people can transport themselves from their concrete jungles to the "wilderness", aids and abets them in their thrashing of said "wilderness".  

It's unfortunate that California has about 40 million people living in it, but that's the reality.  

The vast majority of that 40 million are living in huge cities.  These are the folk who come to the "mountains" to get away from it all, but who then proceed to shit all over the place.  The folks who pick their dog's shit up in a plastic bag, but then leave it on the side of the trail to be forever preserved...  The folks who camp right below the "no camping" sign.  The folks having that massive campfire throwing sparks a hundred feet up in the middle of August...

People don't respect what they don't know.  

How do you instill a respect for the wild places of our state in the throngs of people marching up from the Bay Area and LA?
I don't know...  
More signs?  More rangers?  More regulation?  More education?  More social media shaming?  

Start with the social shaming man!!

id say make it illegal to park at the base of things on a weekend and run a weekend shuttle service or increase the hike in. hate to say that. people less inclined to camping at the crag as they would immediately be seen as a problem. Might deter some of the none diehards from climbing. (just spitballing here, please don't rip me a new one) but we should start figuring out a way to protect this for years to come. I'm referring to a zion scenario. Can't trust humans to have a conscience of there impact on this world, look at where we're at with global climate change. We have major changes in our current weather pattern, and nobody cares to come up with a solution. We will just drive this baby till the wheels fall off and be stuck in a desert starving too far from destination crag wondering what happened. Mainly because our population is out of control, and he's eating cake, but that doesn't mean we all deserve cake. Wear and how do we draw the line

EvanHyatt wrote: id say make it illegal to park at the base of things on a weekend and run a weekend shuttle service or increase the hike in. hate to say that. people less inclined to camping at the crag as they would immediately be seen as a problem. Might deter some of the none diehards from climbing. (just spitballing here, please don't rip me a new one) but we should start figuring out a way to protect this for years to come. I'm referring to a zion scenario. Can't trust humans to have a conscience of there impact on this world, look at where we're at with global climate change. We have major changes in our current weather pattern, and nobody cares to come up with a solution. We will just drive this baby till the wheels fall off and be stuck in a desert starving too far from destination crag wondering what happened. Mainly because our population is out of control, and he's eating cake, but that doesn't mean we all deserve cake. Wear and how do we draw the line

Zion is a National Park. None of the areas listed are a national park and very unlikely to become one.

Climbers Visit these areas and very few other people, so this leaves little reason for anyone to find a shuttle. This leave more issues (bathrooms, water, pad shuttle, etc). 
The next issue is that where will these people stay then in a spot already dealing with overcrowding and limiting the places even more. It will just pass the overcrowding away to places out of the main climbing areas.  

If you are going to start with Prana than go to that picture press angry & tell them why.

this recent post from the bishop area climbers coalition seems like a worthy addition to this topic.

Allegra Davis wrote: Now we’ve got companies like prana showing people that this is the way to camp in the eastern Sierra

Social media seems to be a huge point of toxicity involved with this issue. Everyone wants to achieve their own version of the “perfect adventure” or whatever other social brownie points they can get via posting online. Geo tagging locations is also adding to the increased abuse and traffic.