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Sam Skovgaard
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Nov 11, 2018
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Port Angeles, WA
· Joined Oct 2017
· Points: 208
- On Mount Lemmon there are a fair amount of trad routes with no top anchors. These routes fall into a few categories:
- 1) routes with straightforward walk offs
- 2) routes which technically can be walked off, but doing so is very inconvenient and/or sketchy/dangerous
- 3) routes that cannot be walked off, meaning you have to either leave gear/tat to rap off vs down climb the thing
- What is the local consensus on adding top anchors to these types of routes? My opinion is that adding in top anchors to facilitate safe descent for situations 2 & 3 should obviously be acceptable. I imagine most FAs would be okay with someone adding a top anchor to their route, but would be very interested to hear opposing viewpoints.
- Situation 1 seems like it could go either way for me. I generally prefer rapping to walking off, so I'm always happy to see a nice solid two bolt anchor at the top of anything, but I could see the counter argument that such anchors are by definition unnecessary and you should never place an unnecessary bolt. What say you all?
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Kevinmurray
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Nov 11, 2018
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2012
· Points: 0
Obviously you are wrong. If the original first ascent party can get down without top anchors then so can you.Sounds as though you just want to set up easy top ropes for laps.
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Scott M. McNamara
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Nov 12, 2018
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Presidio San Augustine Del…
· Joined Aug 2006
· Points: 55
In my view, an established trad route should never be changed without the permission of the person who put it up.
If that person is no longer around---then it should not be altered.
These days S. Arizona has far more sport routes than trad routes.
Pure trad routes are rare.
Trad climbers are minority users.
But just because they are minority users--- does not mean that their adventure climbing style should be dictated by the majority.
Viewing this from the other direction----should trad climbers be able to chop the anchors off any sport route that they believe would be better if it did not have them?
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Rock Climber
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Nov 13, 2018
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Dec 2015
· Points: 179
add them, if locals hate them, watch them get chopped and you will be forever known as an asshole ... or ppl will use them and just shrug about where they came from ...
ask forgiveness, not permission*
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Randy Von Zee
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Nov 13, 2018
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Chicago, IL
· Joined Jul 2017
· Points: 19,118
Scott M. McNamara wrote: In my view, an established trad route should never be changed without the permission of the person who put it up.
If that person is no longer around---then it should not be altered.
Why are the preferences of dead or retired men more important than those of the community of active users? Dead people probably don't know or care what protection has been installed.
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Scott M. McNamara
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Nov 13, 2018
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Presidio San Augustine Del…
· Joined Aug 2006
· Points: 55
Once upon a time, Tucson was known for its bold climbers.
An old N. Arizona guidebook referred to them as “the Tucson run out masters.” I never was one.
I won’t name them for fear of leaving one out. And at least one--- would not wish me to use their name.
I am proud of these men. I respect them. I honor them.
Yes, this month one died, not in the mountains as he wished, but in bed from cancer.
I have never had the talent nor the courage to climb many of their routes---but their routes inspire.
Their routes display a very different aspect of climbing that is dear to me.
Their routes inform about vision, commitment and fear. Their routes ask me to try a little harder, they ask me to question and challenge my fears.
Their routes invite me to be a better climber, a better person.
Thus, altering one of these minority routes seems almost sacrilegious.
Yes, eventually you will have the final say, because those men will die out. But I fear if you emasculate--- you will cut away a very precious thing ---from those seek a different path.
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Tim Lutz
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Nov 13, 2018
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Colo-Rado Springs
· Joined Aug 2012
· Points: 5
CO 'native' seeks to change ethics of AZ bold climbing. classic.
Top rope anchors allow one to 'conveniently'... toprope the crux, tick, check gear placements
glad somewhere in the country still recognizes that:
Trad anchors are aid.
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Brian in SLC
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Nov 13, 2018
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Sandy, Utah
· Joined Oct 2003
· Points: 21,746
I say, "no". The git off is part of the experience of the route.
I think a fair number of the FA folk are still around. Easy enough to seek them out for their opinion. Still, probably mostly talking about routes that have been ascended and descended for over 40 years.
Partly what makes Mount Lemmon special. I wouldn't agree with taking that away from the local community, or, depriving visiting climbers from that experience either.
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M Mobley
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Nov 13, 2018
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Bar Harbor, ME
· Joined Mar 2006
· Points: 911
Tim Lutz wrote: CO 'native' seeks to change ethics of AZ bold climbing. classic.
Top rope anchors allow one to 'conveniently'... toprope the crux, tick, check gear placements
glad somewhere in the country still recognizes that:
Trad anchors are aid. I'm glad someone here gets it. If you aren't walking off or leaving gear behind you really aren't trad climbing. I think the subject needs more community discussion as well.
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Mark Paulson
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Nov 13, 2018
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Raleigh, NC
· Joined Sep 2010
· Points: 141
Obviously the OP needs to slow his roll- this seems like an "I climbed (or just looked at) this route and there wasn't an anchor and I want an anchor" type situation. Expect the typical response we're already seeing here. It's not up to you, it's up to the community and the current stewards of the area, and if there isn't an anchor there, then that's probably the way it should/is going to be.
However, to all those waxing poetic about the crusty hardmen of yore and their brilliant vision, I would argue that in many if not most of these situations, the FA'er simply found it more convenient to walk off than to spend an hour or two hand drilling two bolts solely for posterity. Back then, I doubt anyone was foreseeing climbing becoming a massive phenomenon, and once you and maybe a couple of your buddies did the route, it was on to the next FA, which, back then, was just "climbing". I think there's a common tendency to conflate runout protection and anchor-less routes with "bold and visionary climbers", rather than with broke, post-adolescent dirt-baggers who were more interested in getting up a line than standing around hand-drilling.
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Sam Skovgaard
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Nov 13, 2018
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Port Angeles, WA
· Joined Oct 2017
· Points: 208
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies; I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me on some of the finer points of the local scene/history. Also, thanks for keeping the MP snark at the right level, just enough to make the reading entertaining without being jerks :)
A little more about me, I'm from Colorado but have been living in Tucson and climbing on Lemmon for 1.5 years now. That's enough time for me to have climbed what feels like 0.1% of the incredible volume of routes here, many of which were put up before I was born.
My first experience with the anchor-less trad route with no walk-off was Josh and Dave's route at the Green Slabs area where I got to experience the horrible experience of rope-solo down climbing on lead, what a mess that process is!
Some additional thoughts/reactions:
1) The concept of downclimbing as part of the route is new to me. My experience with downclimbing was as a retreat strategy or as a training drill to improve footwork. I had never heard this discussed as an important style of trad climbing. What are some of good routes around here where this is the established style and the way people typically climb it? I would love to hear more discussion about this.
2) Let's say I topped out on an anchor-less climb, moved 20 feet to the left on the top of the cliff, then placed some rap anchors to allow egress to the bottom. This seems like an acceptable compromise, right? While the FA has a type of ownership claim to the climbing line itself, they don't get to lay claim to the entire clifftop, right?
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Wes Turner
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Nov 14, 2018
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az / pa
· Joined May 2003
· Points: 30
Sam Skovgaard wrote: Thanks for all the thoughtful replies; I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate me on some of the finer points of the local scene/history. Also, thanks for keeping the MP snark at the right level, just enough to make the reading entertaining without being jerks :)
A little more about me, I'm from Colorado but have been living in Tucson and climbing on Lemmon for 1.5 years now. That's enough time for me to have climbed what feels like 0.1% of the incredible volume of routes here, many of which were put up before I was born.
My first experience with the anchor-less trad route with no walk-off was Josh and Dave's route at the Green Slabs area where I got to experience the horrible experience of rope-solo down climbing on lead, what a mess that process is!
Some additional thoughts/reactions:
1) The concept of downclimbing as part of the route is new to me. My experience with downclimbing was as a retreat strategy or as a training drill to improve footwork. I had never heard this discussed as an important style of trad climbing. What are some of good routes around here where this is the established style and the way people typically climb it? I would love to hear more discussion about this.
2) Let's say I topped out on an anchor-less climb, moved 20 feet to the left on the top of the cliff, then placed some rap anchors to allow egress to the bottom. This seems like an acceptable compromise, right? While the FA has a type of ownership claim to the climbing line itself, they don't get to lay claim to the entire clifftop, right?
Rap the anchors on Yurt Monkey. DONE!
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Sam Skovgaard
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Nov 14, 2018
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Port Angeles, WA
· Joined Oct 2017
· Points: 208
Wes Turner wrote: Rap the anchors on Yurt Monkey. DONE!
Yeah, that would have worked for that particular route (in hindsight). But there are plenty of others where that option isn't available.
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Marc801 C
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Nov 14, 2018
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Sandy, Utah
· Joined Feb 2014
· Points: 65
Sam Skovgaard wrote: But there are plenty of others where that option isn't available. Are you certain about that? How have climbers been descending those routes? In the admittedly brief time at Mt. Lemmon we definitely did trad routes that did not have fixed anchors and we never had an issue in finding a way off. Frankly, I've never heard of the "downclimbing to descend" method nor did we encounter that on any Lemmon route.
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Wes Turner
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Nov 15, 2018
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az / pa
· Joined May 2003
· Points: 30
Sam Skovgaard wrote: Yeah, that would have worked for that particular route (in hindsight). But there are plenty of others where that option isn't available. Respectfully, that's just not the case at all. If you have some in mind, feel free to list them out and this group will get you down in short order..... without the need to make permanent adjustments.
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jbak x
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Nov 16, 2018
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tucson, az
· Joined Jan 2006
· Points: 4,656
I like Mark Paulson's post. I can hardly think of a trad route on lemmon that isn't a walk-off. Sling a bush, leave a nut... no prob.
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Sam Skovgaard
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Nov 18, 2018
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Port Angeles, WA
· Joined Oct 2017
· Points: 208
Here are some routes that appear to not have a good way off. I haven't climbed any of them and am open to the possibility that I'm wrong on 100% of these, if so please chime in and correct me. Parentheses indicate page number in SQL III
The Gatehouse area (51) Banana Pudding (111) So-o-o Swe-e-e-t (112) Frijole Spire area (125) Queso Spire area (128) Hawk's Bill Spire (128) Funky Tut (147) Rock of No Name area (154) Punch and Judy Towers (166) Spectre Rock area (205) Neon Rock (206) Little Rock (215) Diamonds in the Rust (282)
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Lee Davis
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Dec 16, 2018
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Belen, NM
· Joined Jan 2015
· Points: 350
I had quite a lot of experience during my rock climbing years with bolts and no bolts. I have done no climbing in Arizona, but rather a lot in New Mexico and California. On top, to aid in the safe rappel off a climb, I feel that it is always a good idea to place a bolt or two. Not so much on the climb itself. But the thought that the original climbers had the gospel down pat to not place protection is quite ridiculous. How about the times a party did not have a bolt kit along? That happened to me many times. On the first of the Great East Slabs in the Organ Mountains, Dick Ingraham did a long lead on the first pitch and had a small stance 50 feet up where he could have placed a bolt, if he had one. He continued on without any protection till he could get a piton in (this was 1968). If he had fallen, he would have hit the ground. A bolt was later placed at that stance, which turned the climb into a safe one, and became popular for new climbers. At one point the bolt was chopped. I replaced it. When Steve Roper and Chuck Pratt did the standard route on Shiprock, they chopped upwards of 30 bolts. I agree with that, for when I did it, I found the original 4 huge eye bolts of the first ascent party more than adequate. But Bernie Topp fell to his death on Shiprock in the late 50's because his rappel anchor failed in the Black Bowl. When I was there, the 2 bolts that were in place made it safe for all. I have done many first ascents on a shoestring, with limited equipment, and so I am not about to think that my techniques are sacred and should not be changed. I remember doing the Chouinard Herbert route on Sentinel and at the top of the 3rd or 4th pitch, the belay was a hanging one from a single old rusty, 15 year old, quarter inch bolt. When Fred arrived, we were both hanging off that little bolt, and that was the most distressing event of all my climbing days. If I had a bolt kit, I would have placed another. Later talked to Yvon about it, and he agreed!
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Harumpfster Boondoggle
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Dec 16, 2018
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Between yesterday and today.
· Joined Apr 2018
· Points: 148
^^^If there are existing fixed anchors they should always be top notch.
But unless erosion on top of the crag is a major concern then no trad route should have fixed anchors added.
In Yosemite we are beginning to see the inevitable polishing of routes from countless hands and shoes climbing them. Convenience fixed anchors on top accelerate this process and should be strictly avoided to preserve the quality of the climb for the future.
Convenience anchors always increase the traffic on a route but some do need them to increase traffic to stay clean. Others more popular will have their rock quality inevitably degraded from over-use and should never have convenience anchors placed as it just causes more traffic, top rope laps and mini-trax noobs.
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Short Fall Sean
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Dec 16, 2018
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Bishop, CA
· Joined Sep 2012
· Points: 7
If you're going to piss off a bunch of people by adding anchor bolts, can you please add them at, oh I don't know, say maybe Paradise Forks?
Thanks!
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