Inexpensive bolt extractor

Greg Barnes wrote: In soft rock, if you try to tap the inside of the sleeve on a 5-piece, the sleeve can just expand into the rock and you get no threads tapped in at all.

A cordless grinder is your friend, particularly for hardened bolts like split-shafts.

Thread-head 3/8" split-shafts can't be spun out. However in soft rock you can sometimes just extract the bolt with a crowbar or prybar, and I've seen them where the bolt never compressed at all (and the hole looks like a perfect image of a cross-section of the split-shaft bolt). But that's only going to happen in soft rock. If the threads are good you could probably pull one just with a Hurley or other extraction device (but it might well crater the rock surface around the hole).

If you're prepared to use large glue-in bolts, it's also possible to "redneck core drill" 3/8" split shafts by drilling small holes down alongside the bolt with 5/32" or 3/16" SDS bits, then pull the bolt out and drill the hole up to 9/16" or 5/8" for large glue-ins. I have some step-by-step guides for that, but there's a lot of effort and some tricky steps (particularly drilling the tiny SDS holes around the bolt - the bits are squirrelly and can break, or track out away from the bolt into the rock, etc).

Yeah I was able to pull a few of the split shaft bolts with the hurley. And I know I'm able to tap threads in because I can feel my draw stud screwing in and sometimes I'm able to pull the upper sleeve out by just pulling on the tap. I'm not sure core drilling is really a good idea in this context because I'm just gonna be patching the hole. I think I'll try prying it out a prybar under the hanger. 

With regards to 3/8" split shafts with damaged threads, Greg Barnes gave me a 3/8" tuning fork which I have used successfully.  Unfortunately, it was a one-off and there are no more available from the ASCA.  However, for you handy tool making types, you know what the design needs to be from the 1/4" version so have at it!

s.price wrote: Eli, how are you patching the holes?

I've been using some stuff called instacrete that we got from the ASCA. It works pretty well, isn't messy, and is easy to use. I like it a lot and its perfect for Durango sandstone because the color matches really well with the rock. 

s.price wrote: Very nice. I always find a little chip of rock and cover the hole as well.
But I'm kinda picky about the details.

I've been rubbing some sand into it as the final step. It was actually kind of hard to find the hole I patched yesterday at the top of the middle gully. I don't think anybody would notice it unless they were looking for it and knew where the bolt used to be. 

So I was finally able to get part of a sleeve extracted with the hurley jr puller but I have now run into a whole new issue. My 3/8" draw stud is now stuck screwed into the hurley jr puller and I'm unable to twist it out. Surely this must have happened before and somebody knows how to fix it. Any ideas?

I use vise grips (though pliers would work too) in the middle of the draw stud and a wrench on the Hurley’s coupler nut. Be sure to grab the draw stud in the middle so you aren’t ruining the threads on the last inch of either end

Drew Nevius wrote: I use vise grips (though pliers would work too) in the middle of the draw stud and a wrench on the Hurley’s coupler nut. Be sure to grab the draw stud in the middle so you aren’t ruining the threads on the last inch of either end

I tried that with the pliers on my roomate's multi tool and all it did was strip the threads on the draw stud. I know that if I could put a nut on the draw stud and then somehow stop the movement of that nut then I could just use a wrench to twist it out, but I'm not really sure how to do that. In case it wasn't already obvious, I'm not exactly the handy type... 

At this point, I don't really care if I ruin my draw stud in the process, as long as I can get it out of the hurley so that I can use it to replace some wedge bolts. Besides, the draw stud was only like a buck and change at the hardware store so it's easily replaceable. 

I tried to start doing some replacement at a different crag today and it didn't go so well. I also encountered a new bolt time (new for me at least). It is an old rawl bolt that is not a 5 piece but is a sleeve bolt and has a threaded stud instead of a hex head. It's pretty much like a wedge bolt but instead of a collar it has a full length sleeve where the collar would be.

So you can't unscrew the shaft because the cone is part of the shaft. I tried spinning it a little bit and then screwed on the hurley jr. However, instead of coming out completely, it came out part of thre way and then the threads stripped, leaving me unable to pull it or even spin it. I tried pounding it back into the hole since I was going to place a bolt in better location anyways. The hole was too shallow, leaving about 3/4" of the stud sticking out of the rock. Big failure. Any advice for next time?

Eli ran into one of these.  They have been heavily used by developers.  Powers, Hilti and Red Head make them.  Most are not strong enough for climbing but they proliferate nonetheless.  I am intrigued about solutions for removing them.  If you can manage to get a hold of the sleeve with pliers, it’s possible to pull it out over the bolt and then slide the bolt out, but that’s a hard/lucky thing to do.

I would think you would be able to spin it like a wedge bolt to get the stud out and then tap the sleeve like you would for a 5 piece bolt, although I could be wrong. Can't do either of those, though, if the threads strip. Anybody had success dealing with these bolts?

eli poss wrote: I would think you would be able to spin it like a wedge bolt to get the stud out and then tap the sleeve like you would for a 5 piece bolt, although I could be wrong. Can't do either of those, though, if the threads strip. Anybody had success dealing with these bolts?

Look and think about the mechanics of that.  The whole sleeve is the collar.  If you spin it and try to pull it...it would be WITH the sleeve.  There is no way to get the bolt out with the sleeve staying in...unless you somehow sheer the cone.

dnoB ekiM wrote:

Look and think about the mechanics of that.  The whole sleeve is the collar.  If you spin it and try to pull it...it would be WITH the sleeve.  There is no way to get the bolt out with the sleeve staying in...unless you somehow sheer the cone.

Good point. I guess I thought that if you cut through the sleeve like you would the collar, the whole stud would come out. Instead it just moves a bit and reengages. Maybe Greg Barnes or gregger man knows some trick for these little fuckers. I sure hope so, because they're all over the crag I need to rebolt. 

Unscrew the nut and pull off the hanger. Grab the sleeve with needle nose vice grips near the surface of the hole and pull it out. Then pull out the bolt shaft by hand. 

Taylor Spiegelberg wrote: Unscrew the nut and pull off the hanger. Grab the sleeve with needle nose vice grips near the surface of the hole and pull it out. Then pull out the bolt shaft by hand. 

Sleeve isn't close enough to the surface to grab with pliers. It's only threads for at least a centimeter deep. And even then it would only be the upper sleeve, which doesn't really do me any good.

Taylor Spiegelberg wrote: Unscrew the nut and pull off the hanger. Grab the sleeve with needle nose vice grips near the surface of the hole and pull it out. Then pull out the bolt shaft by hand. 

For sure the first option to try.  Sometimes possible in soft rock or a loose hole with the type in the first pic. And then IF the sleeve is close enough to the edge.  That can be real difficult in a tight hole in hard rock.

Will not work with the multipiece in the bottom pic. You only get the top part of the sleeve. 

I don't know of any good method for removing stuck Lok-bolts (that's just the name of the Powers version of that design, I don't know if there's a better name for this type of bolt). If you get lucky, you can just grab the sleeve with pliers and wiggle it out. There's some photos of an easy/lucky removal here:
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106538566/kashmir

Spinner tools are threaded for 3/8" and a Lok-bolt is going to be 5/16" (unless it's a 1/2" Lok-bolt which will have a 3/8" bolt core), but even if you have a correct size spinner tool, I can't see how it's going to work, unless you can "gently" get the spinning to back the sleeve out of the hole. That shouldn't work (considering the design), but I suppose it could in soft rock?

My general plan would be to unscrew the nut, remove the hanger, and see if the sleeve sticks out of the rock. If so you're probably in luck, tap the bolt in a bit to disengage the cone (without whacking the sleeve), grab the sleeve with pliers (the bolt will still be there too), and rotate/wiggle it out. Might even want to grab the sleeve with pliers before you do the light tap to push the bolt core in. If the sleeve isn't sticking out, I would put the hanger and nut back on, tighten down the nut to snap off the bolt, and see if tightening down the bolt might have backed the sleeve out such that you can grab it. If not, tap them in and patch. Might be a good idea to have a 5/16" punch to do that (to minimize scarring).

Hopefully someone has a better idea, because other than core drilling I don't see another option, especially for the long ones with two part sleeves.

The 3/8" versions of these bolts are super weak to begin with, barely rated stronger than a 1/4" buttonhead!

Greg Barnes wrote: I don't know of any good method for removing stuck Lok-bolts (that's just the name of the Powers version of that design, I don't know if there's a better name for this type of bolt). If you get lucky, you can just grab the sleeve with pliers and wiggle it out. There's some photos of an easy/lucky removal here:
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106538566/kashmir

Spinner tools are threaded for 3/8" and a Lok-bolt is going to be 5/16" (unless it's a 1/2" Lok-bolt which will have a 3/8" bolt core), but even if you have a correct size spinner tool, I can't see how it's going to work, unless you can "gently" get the spinning to back the sleeve out of the hole. That shouldn't work (considering the design), but I suppose it could in soft rock?

My general plan would be to unscrew the nut, remove the hanger, and see if the sleeve sticks out of the rock. If so you're probably in luck, tap the bolt in a bit to disengage the cone (without whacking the sleeve), grab the sleeve with pliers (the bolt will still be there too), and rotate/wiggle it out. Might even want to grab the sleeve with pliers before you do the light tap to push the bolt core in. If the sleeve isn't sticking out, I would put the hanger and nut back on, tighten down the nut to snap off the bolt, and see if tightening down the bolt might have backed the sleeve out such that you can grab it. If not, tap them in and patch. Might be a good idea to have a 5/16" punch to do that (to minimize scarring).

Hopefully someone has a better idea, because other than core drilling I don't see another option, especially for the long ones with two part sleeves.

The 3/8" versions of these bolts are super weak to begin with, barely rated stronger than a 1/4" buttonhead!

Thanks for the response Greg. I’m pretty sure at least one of the bolts I plan on replacing at Lost City is a lok-bolt. I think Chase Webb said he’s had success in Arkansas sandstone with tapping the stud back in and then pulling it with a Hurley Jr, but I haven’t tried it myself yet

dnoB ekiM wrote: Eli ran into one of these.  They have been heavily used by developers.  Powers, Hilti and Red Head make them.  Most are not strong enough for climbing but they proliferate nonetheless.  I am intrigued about solutions for removing them.  If you can manage to get a hold of the sleeve with pliers, it’s possible to pull it out over the bolt and then slide the bolt out, but that’s a hard/lucky thing to do.

I've removed quite a few of the solid sleeve versions of these like the upper picture and they are typically relatively easy to do.  Usually the sleeve is flush with the surface of the rock or it protrudes from the surface if the hanger is installed around the sleeve, if the sleeve is protruding it's super easy, just tap the bolt back into the hole to disengage the cone, grab the sleeve with needle nose plyers and pull it out which typically brings the stud with it.  If the sleeve is flush with the surface of the rock and you can't get a hold of it with the plyers, take a chisel and break off the edge of the hole so that you can grab it with the plyers and use the same process.  If the hole is overdrilled enough that the stud doesn't come with the sleeve and it is back in the hole, you  may need a retractible magnet to pull it back out (yes I have had to do this in the past).  As far as the powers lok-bolt (multi piece version), I've never actually come across these in the wild, but I would imagine that they should spin out just like a wedge bolt since they work on the same principal.

Anyone have any luck pulling good 1/2" plated wedge bolts out of granite?

Removed 5 rusty specimens of the lok-bolt design yesterday, and four came out easily. The sleeve protruded a long ways out (the original hangers were welded cold shuts), so just a couple light taps on the bolt head popped the bolt core back in a bit, then just grabbed the whole thing with vise grips and wiggled/rotated it out.

However on one, the sleeve had actually fragmented near the wedge, so the bolt was stuck - it would rotate a small amount (maybe 5-10 degrees), but that's it. So I figured I'd just be very patient and work it back and forth, with a lot of blowing into the hole to get rock dust and rust out. After a couple minutes it was rotating 45 degrees and I got the upper portion of the sleeve out (which was broken/short so it made it very obvious what was going on), and then it took a long time, maybe 5-10 minutes, before I started getting sleeve fragments out and then the whole bolt.

So, if the bolts are really rusty, it's possible for the sleeve to disintegrate, and you might try patiently working it back and forth while blowing out the hole. Here are the bolts:

Also you may notice that the bolt below the fragmented one had the sleeve installed backwards, that's how it was in the hole (and it came out easily like the other intact ones).

I don't see any way of attaching a bolt like this to an extractor, since you need to grab the outside of the sleeve, not the bolt itself (since that would just re-seat the bolt-end-cone into the sleeve). So in this case the "bolt extractor" is just a pair of vise grips. As discussed above, if the sleeve is flush with the rock or below the rock surface, things will get much more difficult, and if it's right above the rock surface you may need pliers with a pretty "sharp" tip to successfully grab the sleeve edges.