Don't assist the bat survey, they'll close our crags

Not sure where the current bat survey is headed, but the current bat closures in Boulder's OSMP lands are limited and have minimal impact on climbing access

https://bouldercolorado.gov/osmp/bat-roosting-closures

Perhaps in other jurisdictions with fewer field resources the closures could be more significant.  

Brother Numsie wrote:

Classic NPC response. With 24 NPC's outing themselves with the like button.

It would be helpful to catalog the NPC's posting here,so as to know who not to waste time responding to. Save it for actual participants. 

I liked (what seemed to me to be) an intentionally hyperbolic response with a good point. Climbing access is important, but there are other more important things. OP strongly defends an important thing as if it is the most important thing. I'll always upvote cheeky replies to that kind of argument.

Well, I certainly know of one environmental group that takes donations from people with idea that the money will be used to protect lands from abuse from oil, gas, mining, logging, grazing, and real estate development.  But then uses the money to protect lands only by shutting out recreation.  It wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t also using the money to help broker land swaps in order to promote oil, gas, mining, while obscuring that fact from people who donate and then get shut out of the very lands they were trying to protect for recreation.

I’m pretty sure that most of the people working for the enviro group have the best of intentions and aren’t in on the bigger picture of their organizations goals.

So it’s not really a stretch for me to believe that there are well-intentioned biologists that are working to protect bats, and that the results of their data are used only for shutting out recreation, while ignoring much bigger threats to bats.  And thus, the bigger threats are left in the shadows to continue to do what they do.

What other threats to bats are being analyzed?  I’d look there if I was interested in following the issue.

Brother Numsie wrote:

Classic NPC response. With 24 NPC's outing themselves with the like button.

It would be helpful to catalog the NPC's posting here,so as to know who not to waste time responding to. Save it for actual participants. 

Bruh. Make that close to 50 NPCs outing themselves. Catalog that.

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

Bruh. Make that close to 50 NPCs outing themselves. Catalog that.

That's a lot of robots. 

Am I the only one fine with them shutting down a few routes, if there was a scientifically supported need, similar to the raptor and eagle closures? Bats are great, I can certainly pick another route.

I’d also beware of conflating caves and climbs.

physnchips wrote: Am I the only one fine with them shutting down a few routes, if there was a scientifically supported need, similar to the raptor and eagle closures? Bats are great, I can certainly pick another route.

I’d also beware of conflating caves and climbs.

I’m guessing all of us would be ok closing some routes if it would truly help save bats. 

But there is plenty of reason to fear that MANY routes will be closed and it won’t help bats at all. 
That’s exactly what happened to cavers  and it could easily happen to climbers. 
What makes you think we are so special that it can’t happen to us?
I think I’m about to be 4 posted. TTYL

My whole point is we are better off policing ourselves when it comes to habitat protection.  Tony Bubb by himself has done 1000x's better at keeping climbers away from raptors than BOSMP or JeffCo. Simply issuing a coercive directive from an office means nothing by itself.
Habitat protection is precisely how the permaclosure Camel's nose gets under the tent.
I can guarantee you that the CSU Biology Department would love nothing better than to get us away from all the crags.

A significant world-wide environmental threat to bats is wind power, see https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-are-bats-affected-wind-turbines?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products. Although wind-power has global advantages in decreasing the rate at which global warming occurs, it has bad local effects on bats and birds.  In Colorado, there is a strong push by environmental groups for more wind power, but little attention is paid to the environmental cost of this energy source. 

Israel sits at a nexus point for birds migrating between Africa and Eurasia. The Society for the Preservation of Nature in Israel now opposes all wind power including small turbines on private property.  World-wide, there are similar if not quite as dramatic issues associated with solar power.

rob.calm

rob.calm wrote: A significant world-wide environmental threat to bats is wind power, see https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-are-bats-affected-wind-turbines?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products. Although wind-power has global advantages in decreasing the rate at which global warming occurs, it has bad local effects on bats and birds.  In Colorado, there is a strong push by environmental groups for more wind power, but little attention is paid to the environmental cost of this energy source.

Israel sits at a nexus point for birds migrating between Africa and Eurasia. The Society for the Preservation of Nature in Israel now opposes all wind power including small turbines on private property.  World-wide, there are similar if not quite as dramatic issues associated with solar power.

rob.calm

~2% die by windmill compared to white nose syndrome from my 2 minute research. Why did you bring this up? Doesn’t have any “significance” to climbing or white nose syndrome or the greater picture of bat population.

Michael Miletich wrote: We lost something like 90% of our bats in VT to WNS.  The resilient ones lived and our population is coming back.  It spreads to quick to try to stop it.  Just let nature take its course. 

But that approach would require almost no biologists or land management.  But you must think of the children!  (And jobs...)  

It's just too simple...

s.price wrote: I have 10 bat boxes on my property and many on clients. We all have ponds so they help with the summer bugs and stay out of the soffit of your house. They can get through a space you wouldn't think a fly could fit. Bat mitigation has been a part of my business for years.

I would engage the powers immediately. In this case it seems better to work towards what affects you than against it.

Love twilight on the back deck with the bats fluttering overhead.

Me and my friends were notified from our local land managers about helping with a bat survey last Spring.

I engaged back by telling them due to several past interactions I no longer had any reason to think they operated in good faith. I also told them that where the bats were are not frequently visited walls and my part would be to do zero towards directing climbing traffic there, and if given the opportunity to would always dissuade climbing routes because of the presence of bats. I know that literally no one bothers bushwacking to them do my response is limited. If a sudden interest appeared I'd step up, probably with signage.
Same goes with Snowy Owls and Turkey Vulture nests.

The bat boxes are great. One of my biggest reasons for pushing anti-state solutions to problems is people assume the state is handling it, therefore I am free to pretend I don't have to do any actual lifting myself. 

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

You must not be old enough to remember what the big bad govt has done with our air and water since it was all brown. Certainly without big bad govt assistance this whole world would be like China. Can I call you brother numnuts?

This ain't the 1960's anymore.

And why not play nice?  "Numnuts" isn't very polite.  I expect better from our hippy bretheren.  

climbing friend,

ClimbandMine wrote:
This ain't the 1960's anymore.

And why not play nice?  "Numnuts" isn't very polite.  I expect better from our hippy bretheren.  

Ha, probably true but I'm just an uninformed NPC with some kind of agenda to close all the crags in America.

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

You must not be old enough to remember what the big bad govt has done with our air and water since it was all brown. Certainly without big bad govt assistance this whole world would be like China. Can I call you brother numnuts?

Does China have a huge, omnipotent state or nah?

Corporations killing off their customer base is not a productive business plan.

I am old enough to remember though wallowing through the muck, aimlessly crawling and scratching around in the mud, near starvation.
Then, the dark clouds above us started to part, and a brilliant light shoned down upon us
And Lo! It was the State, and it said unto us:
"Let there be roads"
And from the heavens the roads descended down.
And there was much rejoicing.
For, before 1913 the mere idea of roads had never even entered the mind of humans.
Humanity is nothing without The State. 

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

Ha, probably true but I'm just an uninformed NPC with some kind of agenda to close all the crags in America.

NPC's don't have agendas. They only repeat their programmed Groupspeak.

Brother Numsie wrote:
Humanity is nothing without The State. 

And the state exists only because of the people, funded by the people, hired by the people, to serve the people.

Mobes Mobesely wrote:

Can I call you brother numnuts?

ERROR: Argument_fail

Run-D:insult.exe

Greg D wrote:

And the state exists only because of the people, funded by the people, hired by the people, to serve the people.

The state is the acceptance that threatening people with badges, guns and violence is the only way to create a civilized society.

Coercion ='s Civilization

No doublespeak there.