New and experienced climbers over 50, #3

Keep feeding the homeless. It's working for you.

Señor Arroz wrote: Keep feeding the homeless. It's working for you.

Senor... your words brought a few tears.  I've been refilling myself for the last few years.  Now I feel like I can start giving again.    

Old lady H wrote: Ah well. Maybe I'll take up pole dancing....

In that case, I've got a route for you: Pole Dancer  The top half follows a 20' long tufa.

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6tAXJ9z9ko&sns=em​​​

I have kind of a technical question I'm pondering.  We've talked alot about strength, endurance and power, and combinations thereof in climbing--all of which can increase with work.  But I think there's a fourth something--I just don't know what to call it.  Watching kids boulder, or hop from rock to rock out in J Tree ... or drop from 15 feet in the bouldering room and have resilience back... what is that?  Is it agility?  What is the quality that allows a cat to soft land when it leaps?    
How to not crunch a low back or knee upon impact?  How to take a fall and bounce back.  Is it musculature?  Is it tendon cushion?  Is it anatomical, or another thing that could be improved with targeted exercise?  Because it seems THERE'S the real limit for older climbers... I'd get right to work on this, if I knew what 'this' is.  

If anyone can tell Lori how to bounce like a kid again, I'll get right on it.

Lori Milas wrote: I have kind of a technical question I'm pondering.  We've talked alot about strength, endurance and power, and combinations thereof in climbing--all of which can increase with work.  But I think there's a fourth something--I just don't know what to call it.  Watching kids boulder, or hop from rock to rock out in J Tree ... or drop from 15 feet in the bouldering room and have resilience back... what is that?  Is it agility?  What is the quality that allows a cat to soft land when it leaps?    
How to not crunch a low back or knee upon impact?  How to take a fall and bounce back.  Is it musculature?  Is it tendon cushion?  Is it anatomical, or another thing that could be improved with targeted exercise?  Because it seems THERE'S the real limit for older climbers... I'd get right to work on this, if I knew what 'this' is.  

Grace. And you're clearly getting there, or are there.

Yeah, learn how to fall, but I think it's really much more just being in tune with your body. As this is starting to flow for you, I'd say you're there.

For me? It's too late, knee wise. I need a good spotter, need to size up routes for fall potential, figure out how (or if) I can downclimb, and how to get off the thing, now that I've discovered I enjoy bouldering. But? I also know, merely falling and compressing  the knees, how ever much it may hurt, does no harm. So there's that, too. Not gonna die, suck it up, buttercup, lol!

That translates to a really good spotter outside, who understands I can't just jump off. I also got a bigass boulder pad, and the partner has three, so there's that.

Bouldering in the gym? I use every hold I feel like using, to always have a good hand on, so I'll at least be hanging  straight if the whole works  peels. And downclimb, every bit of it, which is also a better workout, good practice, and a challenge in itself.

It rules out dynamic moves, but climbing precisely and in control is also something I'm aiming for. I was surprised at the gym last week, when a super capable climber actually noticed and gave me a compliment on climbing with such control. Raised my eyebrows, but it was nice!

For you? Don't talk yourself out of it! All of us, as "older" people, have to keep "climber" in mind. By definition, we are a really  extraordinary subset of the older population, even the active ones (runners and such). As noobs, it's pretty intimidating to feel like you belong, but we both do. It's a glorious outlier to standard issue old ladydom, and why I picked my moniker!

Be safe, have fun, be awesome!

Best, Helen

John Byrnes wrote:

In that case, I've got a route for you: Pole Dancer  The top half follows a 20' long tufa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6tAXJ9z9ko&sns=em

Lol! Thanks, John, but if I ever get to someplace that warm, I'm gonna be looking for DWS! The climber was pretty fun though, happy dancing all over the place!

@ Dallas, I looked up your "5.9+". Heck of a lot think it's a 10, including some strong climbers!

Weights this morning, yardwork once it warms up, and I've got more coffee in me. 20 this morning!

Climbing tomorrow! Dunno if it's roped or bouldering, need to ask the young gun what he'd like to do. I'm thinking boulders, so we can get more in, without standing around, and chase the sun.

Best, Helen

Wendy, Helen... let's keep comparing notes.  

I was reflecting on the long and serious talk Ryan (coach) and I had at the gym a few months ago, where the subject was bouldering and the risk/benefits.  It all came down to falling.  Was I willing to fall in an awkward position and break something?  (no)  

But when I work on bouldering even now I recognize that I'm not willing to fall two feet.  It's a jolt, even on a pad, to jump off the wall and land standing.  With all the techies and nerd-types out there who parse this stuff out, I'll bet there's a word for what is needed to be able to jump/fall more easily.  I'm strong.  I still don't want to hit the pad.  

Lori, (as I'm sure you already know) bending your knees when you land on your feet helps to absorb the shock. But I fear it's all just workarounds for the blunt words of my physical therapist: "You no longer bounce." I think that, as we age, we have to develop techniques and strategies to deal with that. Which is what I think Helen was suggesting.

Lori Milas wrote: Wendy, Helen... let's keep comparing notes.  

I was reflecting on the long and serious talk Ryan (coach) and I had at the gym a few months ago, where the subject was bouldering and the risk/benefits.  It all came down to falling.  Was I willing to fall in an awkward position and break something?  (no)  

But when I work on bouldering even now I recognize that I'm not willing to fall two feet.  It's a jolt, even on a pad, to jump off the wall and land standing.  With all the techies and nerd-types out there who parse this stuff out, I'll bet there's a word for what is needed to be able to jump/fall more easily.  I'm strong.  I still don't want to hit the pad.  

Lori, I climb with a doctor (podiatrist) who has been climbing for 45 years. Great climber, and he is older than me. He won't boulder. He has seen and fixed too many injuries. His goal is to keep climbing and he knows that all it takes is one bad landing and you are out of the game. He is more than capable, but is a big believer that you can climb just as hard either on a rope or auto belay. The injuries there are typically less if your being safe. He also climbs with kneepads and shin gaurds for the rare falls he does take on a rope. And this is a guy who can still climb 5.12+. I boulder, but I assess the fall potential carefully. The thing those younger climbers have is colligan. And the thing us older climbers have is a fully developed frontal lobe (most of us..... hopefully).

I am headed out climbing at Smith again today with the doctor. Have no idea what I am in for today, but he is pushing my game. He is the one that got me to do a heel hook on Friday that was at the level of my head to get over an edge. I had no idea I could do it, and was certain I was going to pull a groin muscle that my wife would have just laughed at me for doing.

14 degrees this morning.... the rock should be cold and sticky

Lori, they call that "being young."

Seriously, I climbed with my 13 year old yesterday. After rope climbing for an hour together she asked me to go boulder with her. That crap just scares me. She can't figure out why her dad can climb 5.12 with a rope but sometimes backs down off a v2 or v3 boulder problem. Cause falling on the ground hurts. I'll leave that to everyone under 30. 

 Easy to get  busted up bouldering Most of my bouldering friends all had broken ankles and other things like wrists snapped and other injuriesI rarely Boulder now! But have Boulder plenty

Lori, if there is no close by down climb holds set, don't boulder in that gym, or stay low. Really low. It's that simple. No one should do drops,  that invites twisted ankles for anyone, but younger people get away with it. Until they don't.

The biggest danger in gym bouldering, IMO, is to your hands. Far too easy to overwork them, and on crappy, pinchy, crimpy, stuff on top of it. I don't know why, but outside is much different. Probably because it's not all ​tiny crimpy pinchfests, unless you seek that out. You can also stay on vertical boulders with...well, pick the line that suits you. You will never get that in a gym, even picking out your own routes (I do that lots).

Tom, I just utilized a heel hook, for the first time, on a recent bouldering trip! Not super high, but still. I think it was part of inventing  a sit start on something. My first successful sorta lay back moves were on super slab, in the bit on pitch three where there's a crack with a fin sticking up. Fun!

Best, Helen

Ok, so maybe we are just aware of the law of averages and recognize that someday the inevitable will happen if we keep pushing it.  Glad everyone is weighing in on this... but I'm still not quite satisfied.  I'll ask around this week and report back if I solve my conundrum.
 
It's not that I want or need to boulder.  But over the last year, especially referring to the great book on training for rock climbers... all my movements and workouts have been directed to one or more of the following: strength, endurance, power. (and combos like power-endurance).  Doing laps on the wall has been for 'endurance'.  Developing pinch and grip strength and holding it has been for strength.  Power is being able to power up in dynamic movement.  I like the 'strength endurance' lecture I routinely get:  "Lori, we know you have the STRENGTH to do this, but you don't have the strength-endurance to do it in a sustained way."  So great... we work on strength-endurance skills so I can not only manage the move once, but up an entire wall in a sustained way.  With all that, it should be safe to take a short fall, or to hop along some boulders outside.  But it's NOT.  I'm also aware how carefully I scramble... maybe that's called 'old person' scrambling.  What's the problem here?

So, I don't need to spring like a cat... but it is interesting to me that I resist ANY kind of fall.  I mean, even very short falls from a bouldering wall.  So, I'd like to find out what that's about... maybe it's a fast-twitch slow-twitch kind of thing???... response times are not fast enough to have safe falls because we tend to move more slowly and deliberately?  For sure there is some collagen cushioning involved.  I've personally noticed that with alot of muscle building I've lost agility.  Could be some core-balance tuning needed.  Even if it's slightly fixable, then it would be fun to work on it!  Again, taking notes, curious, I'm going to find out.   Thank you everyone for weighing in!  

Lori, "up an entire wall in a sustained way" is not ​what really good climbers do. Yeah, you don't want to run out of steam, but, rests are a part of the repetoire. Almost always cut out of all those vids out there. This one, is a favorite, for just that reason. Even so, part of the rests were cut!

https://www.climbing.com/videos/raw-video-margo-hayes-redpoints-biographie-realization-5-15-9a/

As to your not wanting to fall? Then don't. Down climb, find routes you can keep in control, stay on roped stuff with safe(r) falls.... Ryan isn't you, after all.

Best, Helen

In a moment of temporary insanity I agreed to join my kids' adult bouldering league team (four 20-somethings and me). Everyone sets their own handicap based on what they can climb, so in theory a beginner like me can get the same points as a strong climber. First week I watched but didn't boulder because I had a half marathon coming up that weekend and didn't want to risk a twisted ankle (or worse). Second week I completed 2 problems then fell off a V1 and twisted my ankle (validating my judgment the prior week). Third week right after we got there someone on another team fell & dislocated an elbow - that spooked me completely and I didn't boulder at all that night. Last week I gathered up my courage to do a couple of V0's & attempt a V1, but only with having the kids spot me very, very closely, and that was enough for me. Going up was fine, coming down is scary as hell (even when there are some down climb holds). All these nights I'm watching everyone boulder, lots of attempts with falls & jumps - their bodies can handle it all so much more easily. I love cheering them all on, but when this session is over, I'm not going to sign up again. I enjoy trying some harder stuff on top rope, but methinks bouldering is just not for me. Glad to read similar thoughts above.

I’ve also done the bouldering league thing - I can’t jump off (knees and hips) and have to downclimb everything which is really limiting. I’ve hurt my elbow and my neck in bouldering falls. The manager at my gym told me they’ve never had an ambulance call for a roped climber in the 5 years they’ve been open, but it’s a weekly occurrence for bouldering falls. Lori - try doing long bouldering traverses to build strength/endurance. You can stay low on the wall and get super pumped. 

Elisa R wrote: In a moment of temporary insanity I agreed to join my kids' adult bouldering league team (four 20-somethings and me). Everyone sets their own handicap based on what they can climb, so in theory a beginner like me can get the same points as a strong climber. First week I watched but didn't boulder because I had a half marathon coming up that weekend and didn't want to risk a twisted ankle (or worse). Second week I completed 2 problems then fell off a V1 and twisted my ankle (validating my judgment the prior week). Third week right after we got there someone on another team fell & dislocated an elbow - that spooked me completely and I didn't boulder at all that night. Last week I gathered up my courage to do a couple of V0's & attempt a V1, but only with having the kids spot me very, very closely, and that was enough for me. Going up was fine, coming down is scary as hell (even when there are some down climb holds). All these nights I'm watching everyone boulder, lots of attempts with falls & jumps - their bodies can handle it all so much more easily. I love cheering them all on, but when this session is over, I'm not going to sign up again. I enjoy trying some harder stuff on top rope, but methinks bouldering is just not for me. Glad to read similar thoughts above.

What a great story! Glad you tried and came back in one piece to tell about it!

But the WHY that younger bodies can handle it is a mission I’m on now. So when I figure it out and am leaping about like a gazelle I may decide not to share the information.    There are no true believers here.   (Oh man are those famous last words or what?)
EDIT: My initial thoughts on this are around flexibility and maybe some mat skills like in Aikido. Maybe trying some progressive falls that are planned, not accidental. Could also be that losing a little weight would help...then again the people I know with injuries fate just caught up. 

Lori Milas wrote:

What a great story! Glad you tried and came back in one piece to tell about it!

But the WHY that younger bodies can handle it is a mission I’m on now. So when I figure it out and am leaping about like a gazelle I may decide not to share the information.    There are no true believers here.   (Oh man are those famous last words or what?)
EDIT: My initial thoughts on this are around flexibility and maybe some mat skills like in Aikido. Maybe trying some progressive falls that are planned, not accidental. Could also be that losing a little weight would help...then again the people I know with injuries fate just caught up. 

Flexibility goes a long way. So does a lack of accumulated injuries. They'll get there...

BTW, you can earn all the benefits of bouldering on a system wall. And you're not going to take hard or unexpected falls there. Or at least it's not likely.

My issue with bouldering is that my gym has boulder problems that are probably 12-15 feet high. Even just dropping from there is jarring to me. Falling from there sucks. I don't mind the early falls in the first few moves.

I actually like the social aspect of bouldering. I just resist the urge to push myself.