C4 vs. DMM Dragons vs. Totem
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Sorry for the "same old same old" discussion but you fellow climbers need to help this girl out! |
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I always start here when thinking about buying new gear. Granted its all subjective and up for debate, but these guys seem to do a good job testing gear. |
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Totems 100%. I have c4s, x4s, mastercams, aliens, and totems, regular and basics. I consistently place/rack totems first. Haven’t had a chance to climb with dragons yet. |
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Justin G88 wrote: I always start here when thinking about buying new gear...I was ready to buy DMM Dragons yesterday and then I saw exactly that post and stopped myself from pressing "Order" button :) Outdoorgearlab guys clearly do not favor DMM Dragons but if you look at Marc-Olivier's post, it says TOTALLY opposite. Arghhhh. Why does it have to be so difficult to decide? :) |
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jon butler wrote: Totems 100%.So has it happened to you that your follower couldn't remove or dropped it? Just curious. |
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Funny excerpt from Outdoorgearlab review of Totems: |
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When a cam can’t be cleaned because it’s badly overcammed or was placed in such a manner that it walked into a spot where it can’t be retreived, it’s entirely the leader’s fault. You should not be expecting your second to replace such gear. |
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Don't like dragons the tiny stem is crap, c4's are heavy for what they are ( maybe not so much of an issue with the new ones) the new wild country cams are great, totems beat everything though from a size 1 down. |
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As somebody who has had and used all 3 I'll take the totems any day of the week. IMO the new friends are better than the C4s and Dragons so they would be my second choice. It seems that whenever I end up using my partner's rack, I find placements that make me wish I had my totems. |
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I have Dragons, Totems, and Utralight Master Cams. Love them all for different reasons and carry them for different things. But if you're new to trad, you're probably going to find a lot of use for a cam like the blue #3, which you will not find from Totem but will find from DMM, BD, and WC. So I'd go with one of them for your first set and then get Totems later unless you know you won't be needing #3 and larger. |
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Trango has some bomber pieces! (Satire) |
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Dragons. I've tried them all and find Dragon 2s to be the best compromise between cost, quality, ease-of-use, and bulk of the three options you've listed. Having owned Dragon 2s for a couple years I can't climb on C4s. They just feel so darn cheap. |
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Most people's rack in the USA are mostly C4s. For a good reason I think. Use those mainly (in sizes like 0.4-whatever) and you'll be able to use many other people's racks more easily. I have totems, but no way I would free climb with the hand-sized ones, they are floppy when you are trying to place them. |
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My rack consists of a mix of totems, C4s, and Dragons, and if I had to do it over again I would say get a mix of all three. I like totems in everything red and below.* Too floppy for the larger sizes. Beyond that, I would say dragons, as the extendable sling is great on those as it a) carries no strength penalty (unlike the WC Friends) and b) is super helpful for fine-tuning anchor equalization stuff. Not really worth extending on most placements during the route, as the difference is marginal and it makes them harder to clean. For everything #4 and above, get C4s. Wait until the new ones come out, as they have trigger keepers and are about 10% lighter than the old ones. I would stay away from the larger Dragons, as the lack of thumb loop makes the big ones much harder to handle. |
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Black diamond is coming out with new C4s in January. They're between 4% and 10% lighter than the current edition of C4s. |
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Leliko Mana wrote: Sorry for the "same old same old" discussion but you fellow climbers need to help this girl out! There is already hours of material available for you to read about this topic if you continue to search these forums. It sounds like you have done some of that already with reading Marc-Oliviers thread. As previously mentioned if a cam cant be cleaned (above the very basic level of the follower not doing something like just pushing the cam in the crack further without pulling the trigger) it is usually the leaders responsibility. If someone drops something, leader or follower, they should stop doing that, and pay for a replacement. There are ways to clean pro that should make it that you are never dropping anything. If you want, as a new leader / follower you can talk this over with your parters and perhaps practice a zero fault policy where any costs incurred on a route are shared until you guys stop getting pro stuck, dropping things, etc.If you prioritize mileage over grades and what pro you are using, very quickly you and anyone you climb with should have no problems using any cams that are out and in use. If you start with totem cams you may not be as good as placing C4s, Mastercams, Dragons, or Friends as the totems are a bit more forgiving. You can get a .5 - 3 C4 rack for 250 when they are on sale. Probably about the same for Mastercams. Probably the best bet. Get something good, cheap, and dependable. No need to plan a rack based off of what you think other people may or may not have. The .5-3 cams, stoppers, and slings should get you up some easy stuff. Combined with someone else's single rack you will be able to climb loads of routes. Then you can try to fill out the .1 - .4 sizes with x4s, c3s, totem cams, basics, etc. After that add a 4 and you'll have a decent full single rack. After that you could get into doubles or add a set of totem cams. Hopefully by that point you'll have climbed a bunch of routes and you will confidently know exactly what you want and there will be no uncertainty. Money no issue; Double set of Totem Cams, 1 set of C3s (without the 000), the red and yellow x4, 2 BD #2's, 2 BD #3s, 2 BD #4s and 1 BD #5. Just by having that rack you will instantly crush 5.10 trad. |
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Another vote for a variable rack. Simple takeaway is to compliment double axles with single axles. I have Totems, Metolius, DMM, WC (new and old friends), and still a few BD. I've been weening away C4s because I think dragons and new friends are equivalent but just better tech. Metolius is bomber and has the best costumer service; if you care about longevity and not replacing cams, give Metolius a serious look. Totems are in a league of there own but still not the best tool for every job nor necessary for the average climber. Search these forums and read more than just Marc's thread, but most importantly, climb with others' rack and find out what you like the feel of. Internetz unfortunately can't give you that final decision. |
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I love my dragons, first time I regretted having them this past Yosemite trip because you can’t clip high on them, which would make a Nose in Day notably harder. |
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C4s, UL C4s or Friends in the bigger sizes. I think I like the new Friends or UL C4s best, followed closely by the C4s and Dragons. Basics/Alien Revolution/Totems/UL Mastercams for your smaller pieces. All other things being equal and you are looking for the "safest" pieces to help your husband sleep at night, Friends for big sizes, Totems for small sizes. In the same placements Totems are possibly least likely to pull, followed by Aliens/Basics/Friends. |
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Simply put, if you're building a rack and money is any kind of object, you'll be much happier and be able to do more climbs if you have more cams. The differences between cams are minor enough to make little difference when you're newer to trad, so it's better to stretch your dollars farther. |
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Buy all sizes of Totems. No brainer. C4 v Dragons is tougher. DMM feel better and are less prone to rust. C4s have a tumb loop which is better. I prefer Dragons. My wife prefers C4s. Wild Country are also very nice, rust resistant and have a thumb loop. Going forward we are buying totems and wild country. |