Belaying the leader with a Munter off of the anchors

Since the majority of belays in Germany are bolted, people don´t build equalized anchors as often as they do here. Yet there are also trad areas (e.g. Rofan in the Karwendel, Austria) and building trad anchors isn´t completely unheard of. It´s just not a staple of climbing as it is here.

Generally the DAV recommends to use one fixed point (=bolt) and to back it up by clove hitching the second solid point (=bolt).
I have to echo the other posters that you shouldn´t belay directly from an equalized trad anchor. The German alpine club always has bolts in the illustrations.
On page eight of this document it is recommended NOT to directly belay of the tie-in point of an equalized anchor. As always - Awesome drawings!
alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu…

David Appelhans wrote:I've been taking a friend from Austria out climbing lately. He recently told me that the recommended method of belay in the teaching classes and books where he learned in the alps is the munter. Now, I've climbed with swiss climbers in the alps and I'm familiar with the leader using a munter to bring up the followers and think it actually works quite well. What surprised me was that he said the recommended method for belaying the leader on multipitch was to use a munter directly off the anchor and not your harness. I asked him if he was sure if this was not some outdated relic technique from the days of hemp ropes, but he checked with a modern book he has from something like the CMC equivalent and said they recommend belaying the leader with a munter direct from the anchor. Has anyone ever seen this?

I prefer having/providing a soft catch on a counterweight, not anchoring a rope to a tank that might break or break my rope if the tank remains a tank. Never have seen or heard of this. I consider it useful if you've run out of carabiners and you have a permanent carabiner on the anchor/belay station.

bearbreeder wrote: ...as to the "suitability' for trad ... i assume beat kammerlander knows what hes doing on 5.14 microgear runnout FAs and the belays he wants on em ... more than most MPers anyways ;)

I can't imagine why anyone who had actually seen the test results posted by bearbreeder would deliberately choose to double the loads on their 5.14 microgear runout FA's.

But I also wouldn't assume that a high-level climber necessarily knows the latest information about anchor loads. And to the extent that Kammerlander does know something, his belayer is using a Reverso on the anchor, not a Munter, although that is almost certainly because they are (I think) using half-rope technique.

The idea that some technique has got to be ok because this or that highly accomplished climber uses it isn't a whole lot better than believing everything you read on the internet.

Well Beat Kammerlander is an 55yr old Austrian Mountain Guide (UIGM certified) and runs a lot of courses and a school so I´d expect he knows what he´s at most of the time. That his belayer is using the Reverso³ in low-friction mode with half-ropes tells me he does know what he´s doing somehow.
Traditionally one is expected to use a dynamic style of belaying with an Italian hitch off the anchor anyway but most people don´t bother, on typical mountain routes the intermediate gear is usually another bolt or a bomber nut/sling since no-one hangs around putting in micro-gear.

Yes, I noticed the Reverso and figured that was their solution to the loading problem with small gear---in addition to the inappropriateness of the Munter for half rope technique.

It seems to be a single pitch climb so the belay bolt is not a multipitch stance anchor. As far as I can tell, the belayer is on the ground and doesn't need an anchor to keep from falling off a ledge, so the the bolt appears to be there only for belaying. If so, it is interesting that an ascent made specifically in a trad style nonetheless required a bolt at the bottom to hold the belay plate.

This seems to indicate how little faith they have in harness belays, which perhaps would reduce the anchor loads even more?

There is one more factor with Beat´s ascent that gets neglected. Beat in fact had two belayers as he stated in an interview. The gear at the crux is very thin. If Beat fell at the crux, one of the two belayers (the one with the direct bolt-belay?) has to start running backwards to keep him off the deck in case the small gear rips.
We don´t know if the second, main belayer was actually using a harness belay or not.

Ok, I didn't know any of that. You would think the belayer who is going to do the running would have the rope through a low directional carabiner and not through a belay plate---you can't begin to run away from the cliff effectively if you are trying to drag the rope through a belay plate. So it seems highly unlikely that the plate on the bolt wasn't the "main" belay.

Here's the story: beatkammerlander.com/news/p….
He fell 10--15 meters "several times" so the system clearly worked!

It reminds me of the "unsuitability" of the grigri for trad

How shocked folks must have been to see beth rodden belayed by a grigri on meltdown (hardest trad climb by a woman and still unrepeated) and taking falls on small marginal gear .... Not to mention all those aid climbers who use a grigri

If one is worried about the forces on the top piece then you had better be using a beal or some other stretchy rope, especially on a lot of trad where theres real life rope drag and friction

Now things like using a tube, using a "regular" belay and using a low impact force rope can reduce the force on gear ... But its a judgement call

And those aren't done on da intrawebs

;)

Beth weighs what a buck 10 maybe a buck 20 soaking wet with gear.

Greg D wrote:Beth weighs what a buck 10 maybe a buck 20 soaking wet with gear.

This guy doesn't ... He even uses it in the alpine (gasp)

cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-…

There's been intraweb crusades against everything from grigris to dyneema to autoblocks

In reality theres little relevance to the real world

No one cares what someone on the intrawebz forums thinks when they lead a pitch, and they shouldn't either

But it is oh so much fun !!!

;)

To revive an old thread with recent info, I've been climbing in Germany and on the several multipitch climbs so far, i've seen ONLY people belaying both the leader and follower off a munter. I asked several people who confirmed it is the standard taught by the DAV (German Alpine Club) in courses and generally recommended. Most everywhere has good to great bolts so it's not a problem. On single pitch stuff people use the teh same belay devices as in the US (tube, grigri, although more use the Mammut Alpine Smart style than classic tubes).

Took some getting used to, but after several climbs with my "American" method and watching Germans setup faster, I think I may be convinced (given good bolts of course).

As far as I know there are a couple of reasons why the DAV speaks in favour of using the HMS/Munter from the anchor. And it's not only the communis opinio for bomber anchors, but also for alpine/trad multi-pitch load-sharing anchors.

Why HMS/Munter:
Using the HMS is quite simple, belaying a leader you don't need to place a dummy runner ot put a carabiner behind the ATC before the leader clips the first bolt/nut/cam; neither does the leader need to think about risks when the follower climbs a traverse

Why directly from the (load-sharing) anchor:
Practical tests by the German DAV, the University of Innsbruck, Austria, and the Italian CAI showed that belaying from the body without the possibility of actively moving into the direction of the falling leader results in similarly high forces (ca. 5,7 kN) on the last bolt/nut/cam, as belaying from the anchor directly (ca. 5,8 kN). In addition the belayer might be violently dragged towards the rock face, risking injuries and instinctively letting the rope go, if not having enough space to move up.

While I have not switched from lead belays off the harness, I think this point is missed by many regarding protecting the harness belayer ...

" In addition the belayer might be violently dragged towards the rock face, risking injuries and instinctively letting the rope go, if not having enough space to move up"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZQnCGl24A