Women and ice climbing

Stiles wrote: CWood--legitimate query-- is there a difference between keeping 2pints of coolaid warm inside your jacket or inside your body?
Curiosity--Doesn't more mass require more energy to keep warm? 

I haven't taken measurements, but intuitively there should be a major difference. Conductive heat transfer occurs over a temperature gradient - the greater the gradient and the lower the insulation factor, the greater the loss. Something that's well inside your body (i.e. below the skin and fat layers) is held at a relatively constant temperature by circulation and metabolism/homeostasis. If this temperature changes much, you become hypothermic or die. In contrast, a drink inside your jacket is outside your skin, which can change temperature greatly without killing you, and half of the drink faces your jacket insulation, which is a lower temperature still. That's a temperature gradient, and heat transfer is definitely occurring. Heat energy is transferred from your body to the drink (which is colder) and from the drink to the jacket insulation (which is colder). The main question is whether the insulation factor of the liquid is less than air next to your shirt, and it almost certainly is.

Why is that different from a urinary bladder? The bladder is under many layers of tissue, and a circulating fluid (blood) is keeping this at roughly the same temperature. If there is a temperature gradient, it's not much of one.

Mass does not by itself consume energy to maintain a temperature. Energy input is required to maintain a temperature only when energy is being lost through heat transfer. Heat transfer within the core should be neglected because it is "well-mixed", and held at the same temperature by circulation. Core temp is also roughly constant. The outside temperature is presumed constant (for an apples-to-apples comparison), the surface area is constant, and the insulation factor is constant. A little more volume/mass doesn't really change the rate of transfer (except that there is a negligible amount more "thermal inertia" to the change).

 Assumptions: core temperature is uniform (approximation). Blood flow in the chest and abdomen is fast enough (forced convection) that it's keeping everything at about the same temperature compared with more superficial layers. Now I don't have a graduate-level understanding of heat transfer, and I don't do this stuff professionally, but to a first approximation this analysis should be accurate.

EDIT: Urine is created at blood temperature in the kidneys, so there's no "warming it up" initially either. You warm up liquid when you drink it and it enters the stomach, then no more heat need be added.

I made a silly graphic to illustrate (definitely not an artist). The "core" area should be all the same temperature. Heat transfer is only occurring in the gradient spaces, going from one area of constant temperature (the core) to another area of constant temperature (the outside). This could be modeled with a lot more math and complexity, but the graphic/sketch is the gist of it. Is there a gradient in the water? It's probably all mixing to a stable temperature, but you're probably losing measurably more heat through it than through the air insulating your skin.

If you move the bladder contents from inside the core to the outside (neglecting disrobing), has internal energy been lost? Definitely yes. But the internal energy per unit mass (i.e. J/kg, specific internal energy) is what we're concerned about - the energy inside you decreased, but so did the mass, leaving you with the same energy per unit mass (i.e. temperature).

https://www.glamour.com/story/theres-a-scientific-reason-women-are-always-colder-than-men

If you're interested, check out the link above for the science behind why women get colder than men.

Highlander wrote:

Maybe a product of environment, around these parts women get after it. Here is my wife on a WI5 first ascent with marginal or very little protection.

Does your wife have a friend or sister who climbs ice? I’m in Ouray 1/7 - 1/11 2019, and again in March... Seriously, you have found the holy grail in this woman. 

I was on Ben Nevis two years ago in March, climbing based out of the CIC hut for a week and had a blast, saw one woman on the mountain, she was a guide, one of the other guides better half. 

Climbed with a notable US woman climbing guide in Washington some years ago on multiple occasions, she married another guide. 

On a guided climb in the Tetons a few years ago my guide was a woman, married to another guide. 

I would be more than happy to support my partner in her aspirations to lead on rock, ice or alpine climbing, and welcome the opportunity to swap leads, go skiing, climb in the desert, Sierras, Europe, Tetons, wherever... Somebody point me to a unicorn!

The northeast has some great ladies but there are definitely a disproportionate amount of men. I'm not sure why and I don't really relate to some of the reasons putting around... but I will say that my least favorite part of ice climbing is having to pee. I know there are funnels, which I still have yet to try, I usually end up holding it all day which in turn makes me dehydrated since I'm not drinking water. Oh the joys of squatting.

More seriously though, I have found it really hard to find consistent female partners so I'm in agreement with the overall theme of this thread.

This past season was my 4th climbing ice and my hardest lead was a stiff/mixed WI3. I did not start leading until the end of my second season on ice- and was kind of taken aback at young men who were leading in their first season and getting on more vertical/hard ice very quickly. I saw a lot of broken ankles and similar injuries from people that tried to push their grade quickly, pretty much exclusively men.

This year I focused my time and attention on backcountry skiing (my 3rd season on skis, 4th of ice climbing), largely because the continued exposure to very cold temperatures had led to some minor frostbite and also the development of Reynauds- something that did not affect me at all in my first 2 seasons on ice. I'd like to be able to alpine climb for as long as possible and the damage that the cold temperatures and limited movement (aka belaying) seemed to be doing was going to impact that goal negatively.

I've tried out many, many different gloves and boots and have paid very particular attention to my appendages for the past year or so to avoid further damage- and I've done my homework on this through research and also speaking with other female ice climbers in the local community. My problem does not seem to be an isolated one.

...I can't write much more right now but maybe that helps answer part of your question? I have a solid lead head and upper body strength and have enjoyed leading ice in the past- but it's not the most enjoyable of the sports that I engage in and the damage to my skin/appendages is seeming less and less worth it to me. I often joke that old mountaineers are into backcountry skiing and alpine rock, I'm not that old yet but I'm pretty quickly headed that way.

Interesting resurrected thread.  

In ice climbing, the perceived risks are way greater than the actual risk....after all, my grandma can climb WI4 with straight shaft axes and pound-ins.....but take a male and female climber of equal ability, the guy will tend to overestimate his ability and be more aggressive and ego driven, and the girl will tend to underestimate her ability and be more humble and cautious.  
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This is on average.  Obvious exceptions are the rule.  

More men lead ice because we think we can and women think they can't aka the dunning-kruger effect

(a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is)

Brena Guerra wrote:....So what if we are less brave and take less risks? .....

Highlander’s wife wants to have a word with you offline....
:)

Katherine Delia wrote: This past season was my 4th climbing ice and my hardest lead was a stiff/mixed WI3. I did not start leading until the end of my second season on ice- and was kind of taken aback at young men who were leading in their first season and getting on more vertical/hard ice very quickly. I saw a lot of broken ankles and similar injuries from people that tried to push their grade quickly, pretty much exclusively men.

This year I focused my time and attention on backcountry skiing (my 3rd season on skis, 4th of ice climbing), largely because the continued exposure to very cold temperatures had led to some minor frostbite and also the development of Reynauds- something that did not affect me at all in my first 2 seasons on ice. I'd like to be able to alpine climb for as long as possible and the damage that the cold temperatures and limited movement (aka belaying) seemed to be doing was going to impact that goal negatively.

I've tried out many, many different gloves and boots and have paid very particular attention to my appendages for the past year or so to avoid further damage- and I've done my homework on this through research and also speaking with other female ice climbers in the local community. My problem does not seem to be an isolated one.

...I can't write much more right now but maybe that helps answer part of your question? I have a solid lead head and upper body strength and have enjoyed leading ice in the past- but it's not the most enjoyable of the sports that I engage in and the damage to my skin/appendages is seeming less and less worth it to me. I often joke that old mountaineers are into backcountry skiing and alpine rock, I'm not that old yet but I'm pretty quickly headed that way.

As someone whose hands sometimes go numb in the supermarket, I quit ice climbing for backcountry skiing and tele'ing much sooner than you.

I have been interesting in Ice Climbing for years. I went for the first time this past winter and it was AMAZING. Cost, availability, and finding a partner (or group) seem to be the biggest challenges. Can't just take off leading a sport like that.... so if you have trouble financing and planning a trip just to try it on TR, it can make 'leading ice' pretty tricky. Overall, I can't think of a single lady that wouldn't enjoy stabbing ice for 100 ft or more. It's a pretty solid way to blow off steam, if you ask me. If any ladies want to plan a trip to Ouray this winter, feel free to reach out. Splitting costs is the way to go! Back country snow hopping with a pack on is a bit brutal, but ultimately worth it. Peeing the the cold is lame. That being said, you're wearing appropriate clothing for the cold and it's more enjoyable (in my opinion) to go ice climbing in the winter than to go rock climbing in the winter with no socks and no $60 Black Diamond heated chalk bag.

I guess my solution here is to team up, split costs, and be top rope heroes until we feel confident enough to lead WI.

:] 

Kinda simple. Very few climbers climb ice. It isn't something to lead right out of the box, or close to it, unlike rock. It's very easy, the climbing part of it, but the big deal is reading the ice, the weather, the approach, avy danger....it's a long list, if you really want to go for fun stuff.

Experience that takes time. A lot of places don't have ice out the back door, unlike rock, and certainly not year round. Also unlike rock.

All that said, so what if someone doesn't lead anything. It is a preference, for whatever reason, not a measure of character. I think a lot of people would find ice climbing super fun, as I did, just on top rope. At 4' 11', it was an astonishing thing to have all the hand and footholds right there, strapped to my feet and in my hands!!

I'm hoping to go to Bozeman this year, and climb my arms off. On top rope. Maybe local ice cragging, with some really good friends, if ice happens "locally" (2 hours) this year. On top rope.

Trapped deep in the old lady body is an old school, backcountry, alpinist. That, is never going to happen, but, I give myself complete badass credit for doing what I do, no one else's opinion of the "style" is relevant.

TLDR? Have fun, be safe, be awesome.

And don't give a shit what anyone else says. A definite perk of old. ;-)

Best, Helen

Brena Guerra wrote:

Me. Come to Bozeman and climb ice with me (but we'll either snag a leader or find a top roper)

I totally LOVE ice climbing! I started ice climbing 8 years ago and am hooked! I do lead and love it as well - I'm 60 and may never lead WI4 but I'm fine with that and am happy to lead up to WI3. I was born and raised in Hawaii but love the cold weather and love winter. I now live in MA and have ice climbed in VT, NH, and MA. I do most of my ice climbing in NH. I hired several AMGA guides to learn new skill sets.....Alexa Siegel for leading ice; Bayard Russell for trad leading and Seth Petit for crack climbing. I currently take sport lead and crack climbing lessons at Salt Pump Gym in ME once a month. I have found that the technique in crack climbing has helped my ice climbing technique immensely. With that, I've gained more confidence in leading ice. As for climbing with other women, I'm lucky in that I have some really badass women I climb ice and rock with here in the Northeast!

Brena Guerra wrote:

Hey Ashton, where did you go ice climbing for the first time? Did you hire a guide? My first time was in the White Mountains last February. I hired a guide. I chose the Whites because I also love big cities and wanted to visit NYC and Boston. I’m planning to go there again next February but will not hire a guide next time, unless I find someone to go and share the cost with me, but buy myself I can’t afford. So I’m trying to figure out what other options I may have. 

There are only certain dates that work for me. If you would like to plan a trip there with me, I’m totally up to that! And if you would like to visit NYC and Boston too, that would be amazing, but if you would like to plan just the ice climbing, that would be great too. I’d consider going to CO only if you were ok to share the cost to hire an awesome guide that I know from there. But he gets booked 3 months in advance, so we would have to make the decision by November the latest. But I loved the Northeast so I’d rather go there. Let me know if you would like to plan something! 

Check this site out. It’s a group run by volunteers. They post a lot of ice climbing trips.https://mountainascent.org

Hi Brena! I went to Ouray last February and hired a guide with a group so we could split costs. (Peak Guides)
They took us to the park for the first day, and then out into the back country the next day. I'll check out the website!!! Is it OK if I reach out via social media? We should stay in touch, and plan this when it gets closer to time! I know of at least one other woman that is stoked on going this winter. We could probably squeeze in a 4th if you know of anyone. =] 

Brena Guerra wrote:

Hey Lovena, that’s awesome!! :)

I will be in the Northeast next February for sure! ! The thing is, I have only certain dates that work for me. If you don’t mind climbing with a beginner, I’d love to meet you and climb with you! 
I’m just like you! I was born and raised in the tropical Brazil, but I love winter! I could never live in a tropical climate again.  On the other hand, I have a friend who was born and raised in Norway,  and he HATES winter! Go figure... lol
I’m looking forward to connecting with you!

Hey Brena, thanks for the email! I'll send you more info in it, but yeeeesss! Come up to the northeast and lets climb! I got a good group of friends I climb ice and rock with and they would be super stoked to meet/climb with you.

I can only speak to my experience.....

Here's what has happened to me in the past few years. I meet women climbers, they get excited, we plan a trip or a day, they bail, I go ahead with my male partners. I'm often the only leader in the female group, and the only one with experience climbing outside of the Bozeman Ice Park. Sometimes the only one with a guidebook. I'm really frustrated with that. I've offered to spend more time out with women talking through repelling, anchors, mock leading - ANYTHING. But....

I think we get scared. We end up going to whatever climb the leader is wanting to do, whether or not it will be a good place to practice skills (that can be climbing, anchors, snow conditions, whatever) and just hang on in the back seat. That was my first season of ice climbing a few years ago, when I ended up 5 pitches up something and too pumped to hold on. Not the most confidence inspiring way to start a sport. This is the first season that I've dictated most of the early climbs with my (life) partner - so that I always have a chance to lead during the day (even if it's WI2), so that if I don't feel WI5 worthy I don't feel bad telling him leading is only on him, so that we spend the first part of the season gaining strength and confidence and not chasing partially formed wet POS. Basically, I tell him what I expect out of the day.

And I think if we did that more, and encouraged one another, and made time for it, we'd have more leaders. Instead of asking - what do you want to climb? Maybe we could ask - what do you want out of today? Do you want to mock lead? Do you want feedback on sticks? Do you want to set up anchors? (this has been a sticking point to SO MANY WOMEN I've been out with - why are we not learning how to make safe anchors? Might make it all seem less scary?) Do you want to go somewhere obscure to feel what winter in wilderness (NOT ice cragging) feels like?

I also second whoever said climb with less experienced people. It makes you be more honest with your abilities, and I like being in the hotseat. ;)

I would appreciate any special tips for keeping women (or men) warm, who have very muscle or fat mass.

My girlfriend is 5’7” and weighs 105 lbs.  Her extremities tend to start vasoconstriction at relatively high temperatures (Her hands get cold at “room temperature”).  Even when well insulated, she often has numb hands and feet at belays.  I was wondering if people in similar situations have had success wih taping chemical hand warmers outside thin gloves and or taping chemical hand warmers on major arteries (femoral, etc).

I get really cold when I'm belaying my partner pitch after pitch; following and removing screws just isn't enough to keep me warm.  Most recently I led all three pitches of a climb and brought my husband up only to find him climbing in his big jacket and warmest gloves, normally that's my MO! Picking climbs which allow me to lead at least a few pitches really helps me to stay warm. Otherwise... tea, layers and yeah handwarmers on the back of your hands and down your sports bra.  Hope that helps! 

This is the exact question I had since I went to Ouray for the first time.  

I started ice climbing in Canadian Rockies, where very strong and well respected female ice climbers exist, such as Sarah Hueniken and Margo Talbot. Even though I saw very few female climbers, I didn't give much thought to it.

Then I went to Ouray Ice Park last month. I was very surprised by 1) so many female climbers 2) 95% is boy friend/girl friend couples 3) didnt see any female climber team 4) no female leaders (granted, Ouray is not really a lead-climbing area). Such an interesting culture and I got pretty irritated.

Then two weeks ago, I went to Lee Vining in the Sierras. Four female climbers out of 10ish people, and three of us were leading. Damn, this is where wild things play!

As to why girls drop out, or not leading in ice climbing, I don't have an answer but that makes me go stronger than usual for the sake of all girls. I guess I am an outlier and I wanna see more of them here.

My thoughts on some of the topics discussed here.

- Cold: I get really cold. but I dont mind. Just find ways to keep myself warm, like other outdoor sports. Discomfort comes with the activities I love and that's just part of the game.

- (Upper body) strength between men and women: Most of the male alpine/ice climbers I know train hard to stay fit and climb strong. They take training seriously.  Strength does not come for free.

- it's ok for women not to lead: I dont want to say it's ok or not, but I dont know any male climbers who do not lead (ice or rock) but I know a lot of female climbers who only follow forever. If men dont start leading after certain period of time, they get peer pressure. They have to lead or drop climbing and find some other sports. It's society's expectation that shape our thoughts and behavior.

I'm back to climbing ice somewhat regularly (it's a fantastic season so far here in Alaska) and I sometimes take less experienced ladies out with me- and I lead more than I follow, I generally don't climb anything that I can't lead these days (which may not be ideal, actually, should probably find a rope gun and push my grade!).
That said, I still struggle with the cold- and I have developed Raynauds as a result of ice climbing as much as I have in the past 5 years (including some frost nip that I got on some toes on a  particularly cold climbing day 3 years back).
Some of the steps that I take now are not climbing ice below 0 degrees (those are ski days, skinning keeps me much warmer), bringing as many as 6 pairs of gloves on even a moderate day, wearing heated socks (and I just got some silk liners because the heated socks were making my feet sweat and causing other problems), eating and drinking obsessively even when I don't really want to- and managing my layers as best I can, both taking some off for a longer approach and keeping a massive belay jacket with me if I am belaying. I also use hand warmers wherever I can but I find them to have limited effectiveness.
I don't feel like upper body strength is an issue but I train consistently, as I have found that to be the best way to keep from injuring myself in a lot of different outdoor activities.