Gym Top Ropes with pre-attached belay devices

I just saw the new Earth Treks in Colorado is going to have a GriGri on every top rope (a la Brooklyn Boulders). Within a few months the same thing will happen at the Golden facility. It seems like they are all about "improving the climbing experience" for any and all people. To me it seems like this is just the dumbing down of climbing. They mention cost savings (most people buy a harness/ATC/chalk bag in a package for pretty cheap) which I don't think is very convincing. There will ultimately be climbers who don't know how to thread an ATC (or a GriGri for the matter) and will be stuck in a world of pre attached belay devices. The horror should someone take them TRing outside... Is it just me or do this policy seem just dumb? Or is it a genius plan to keep people in the gym and away from real rock?

GriGri TR Love

E:

The basic consensus of the thread is that this is not a big deal, better to make climbing easier to get into, it doesn't impact most of us so why do we care. So mostly people don't have a problem, embrace that the gym is not for "climbing" and not intended for you to learn anything about climbing skills for going outside.

This is sadly becoming the standard for new gyms, at least around here.  I’ve even seen gyms not requiring you to tie in and instead have an auto locking carabiner connected to the other end of the rope by a figure 8 on a bight.  These cater to “drop in” clients who can do a five minute orientation and then belay their kids.  Once went climbing with someone who had been climbing in the gym for several months but didn’t know how to tie in.

Who cares over 50% of those people in the gym will never go climb outdoors.

Ted Pinson wrote: This is sadly becoming the standard for new gyms, at least around here.  I’ve even seen gyms not requiring you to tie in and instead have an auto locking carabiner connected to the other end of the rope by a figure 8 on a bight.  These cater to “drop in” clients who can do a five minute orientation and then belay their kids.

That seems to be the truth. I suppose if enough people are dropping in like that and it keeps my membership low that is a good thing. But I don't really see it as a good thing for climbing.

True story. My cousin was visiting from the east coast a few months ago. I heard that he had been getting into climbing at his local gym so I decided to take him out to smith rock. It wasn't until we were roping up to get on wherever I may roam that I found out he didn't have a belay device. Since his gym has Gri Gris attached to every rope it never occurred to him that a belay device is something that you are expected to bring when you go climbing outside. Since I didn't learn to climb at a gym like that it never occurred to me that you could be "in to climbing" and not own a belay device.

Indoor climbing is not outdoor climbing - it's as simple as that.  

ViperScale . wrote: Who cares over 50% of those people in the gym will never go climb outdoors.

maybe more?

The first gym I went to did what Ted described.  There was webbing anchored to the floor with a grigri attached to and a rope already threaded through the grigri, the other end of the rope had an auto-locking carabiner.  So parents could come in and just have to pay for a day pass for their kid and a harness for them and the parent didn't even need to put on a harness themselves to belay their kid.
There were people that had been climbing there for more than a decade and had yet to climb on real rock, though in their defense it was in central Indiana.
This was also 10 years ago

Andrew Child wrote: True story. My cousin was visiting from the east coast a few months ago. I heard that he had been getting into climbing at his local gym so I decided to take him out to smith rock. It wasn't until we were roping up to get on wherever I may roam that I found out he didn't have a belay device. Since his gym has Gri Gris attached to every rope it never occurred to him that a belay device is something that you are expected to bring when you go climbing outside. Since I didn't learn to climb at a gym like that it never occurred to me that you could be "in to climbing" and not own a belay device.

Yes, that’s pretty bad but quite frankly if you knew he had never climbed outside you should have done a little more research before taking someone on an untra-crowded multipitch  in an ultra-crowded area. 

I’ve climbed at a handful of gyms in OR and WA and CO and everyone already had ATCs attaches to the top ropes. 

mediocre wrote:

Yes, that’s pretty bad but quite frankly if you knew he had never climbed outside you should have done a little more research before taking someone on an untra-crowded multipitch  in an ultra-crowded area. 

I’ve climbed at a handful of gyms in OR and WA and CO and everyone already had ATCs attaches to the top ropes. 

The crowded-ness wasn't a concern since we were going in the middle of the week during the summer. I admit it would have been responsible to ask some more questions before just dragging him to the crag, but he was being kind of dismissive when I asked about his experience and I decided it would be fun to let him get in over his head a little. Also worth noting, safety was not (in my opinion) a concern. I've climbed Roam multiple times and its well within my ability level so I felt comfortable leading every pitch with a questionable belay and having him follow.

Luke Bertelsen wrote: Indoor climbing is not outdoor climbing - it's as simple as that.  

True. It still seems like there should be some level of knowledge and skill expected. 

Andrew Child wrote:

The crowded-ness wasn't a concern since we were going in the middle of the week during the summer. I admit it would have been responsible to ask some more questions before just dragging him to the crag, but he was being kind of dismissive when I asked about his experience and I decided it would be fun to let him get in over his head a little. Also worth noting, safety was not (in my opinion) a concern. I've climbed Roam multiple times and its well within my ability level so I felt comfortable leading every pitch with a questionable belay and having him follow.

That attitude pretty much sums up Smith these days. Good luck to you. 

If you want all gym climbers to be ready to go outside ASAP, prerigged belay devices is a bad idea.

If you're okay with people enjoying climbing in a way that you don't, prerigged belay devices seems fine.

Daddy Long Legs wrote:

I have experience being the gumby in a situation just like that, years ago. From this I could not put any blame on the more experienced person- because just like in this story I was also dismissive of any questions of my preparation and the situation was (or should have been) common sense

I showed up to unknowingly go hiking/mountain climbing for a day with only a pair of street shoes and my climbing shoes. I assumed, being a dumb gumby, that this was going to be park-car-and-crag just like back in Kentucky. The guy who invited me out there to that mountainous region expected me to have the common sense to at least do a little of my own research and come with some hiking boots- which makes total sense. I was the immature idiot, not him

Back on topic, I would now worry about these safety gymbos going outside with similar lack of preparation and experience, and getting hurt or worse...This right here is the issue with gyms becoming overly-safe. They have ceased reinforcing the basic common sense that applies to the very same activity that is crucial outside. People these days are raised in a "perfectly safe" world of lawsuits where they no longer need common sense to survive

You went to the crags in Kentucky without even a harness? 

I’m not saying that, as the less experienced climber you should not do your due dilligence. However, as a more experienced climber you should be on top of your game, and that includes making sure everyone has what they need and people are reasonably competent in skills needed. I mean at the very least wouldn’t you want to make sure your partner knows how to lead belay? Clean an anchor? Know commands? Know how to transition when you can’t hear your partner? 

Back in my day they made you belay test for three hours, uphill, in the snow!

Yeah seems lame. Probably wouldn’t be psyched to use their rig. Already pretty annoyed when some shit-for-brains kid comes over and tells me I have to clip into the floor for safety, forcing me to grind the belay rope over my climbers back as they reach the anchor.

What horror! Learning how to climb on dynamic ropes in a safe setting? Better to test the noobs above a pit of crocodiles with Lazer's shooting out of their eyes. How will they ever learn to wear a pas thong and belay from the hip? 

Daddy Long Legs wrote:

Oh, for fucks sake

the guy I went with already knew I could do all that- had done it with me before even. Just a different setting I was oblivious to

 in the other dude's story here- which we're taking about- he states he already knew the guy without the belay device was an outspoken climber so that is why he expected him to know to bring one- which is fair enough

I only brought in my own story to help get the point across: If the noob thinks he knows what to expect, and gives the experienced guy impression he will come prepared, obviously the experienced guy won't feel the need to send of a checklist to his "knowledgeable" friend

“For fucks sake” is the only thing ou have right. 

He was not an outspoken climber by the account of the  story we’re talking about. He had only “heard he was getting into climbing.” No indication the 2 had spoken about climbing at all. 
The Dude had clearly never climbed with the cousin before as opposed to your story where you 2 had. Big difference. 
Where was it said that the cousin knew how to climb anywhere other than the gym? Refer to my 2nd post about things I usually go over before climbing with someone, experienced or not. This isn’t an ego trip, it’s something I do to make sure I get to come home at the end of the day. 
If I’m missing something please enlighten me. 
I apologize for the thread drift. 

Parker Wrozek wrote: I just saw the new Earth Treks in Colorado is going to have a GriGri on every top rope (a la Brooklyn Boulders). Within a few months the same thing will happen at the Golden facility. It seems like they are all about "improving the climbing experience" for any and all people. To me it seems like this is just the dumbing down of climbing. They mention cost savings (most people buy a harness/ATC/chalk bag in a package for pretty cheap) which I don't think is very convincing. There will ultimately be climbers who don't know how to thread an ATC (or a GriGri for the matter) and will be stuck in a world of pre attached belay devices. The horror should someone take them TRing outside... Is it just me or do this policy seem just dumb? Or is it a genius plan to keep people in the gym and away from real rock?

GriGri TR Love  

This has been done in the industry since gris came out. The gym couldn't care less what this does to people's outdoor ability. Their goal is to serve their customers and reduce liability.

I’m not too worried about it.  The Englewood Earthtreks will allow lead belaying with any device.

So people who are serious about climbing, and who will also tend to migrate to the rock, won’t be dumbed down but instead might get better with the Gri Gri which is good.

If I am reiterating what others have said, I do apologize, I did not read all the replies.  As a previous gym owner, i know first hand that these additions to your local gym are almost a necessity.  For one, a fixed gri-gri and also a fixed tie-in is a very safe system,  for experienced and inexperienced alike.  Do keep in mind that a gym, although a place of worship and delight for those of us who are within the enlightened few to touch real rock, is in fact a business, that is unfortunately concerned with paying bills, employees, insurance  and under the stress of potential of lawsuit.  There is nothing, necessarily incorporated with, nor shall you assume that your experience within a gym atmosphere is or shall be construed as instruction enough to climb outdoors.  A gym is a great tool for fun and training, and unless otherwise specifically trained for climbing outdoors, you should not mix the two as the same.  Be safe and have fun.  The added safety in the gym keeps our inherent outdoor sport, away from the eyes of the litigious and we will remain free to roam without the need of waivers, permission and personal insurance and area closures on real rock.  Embrace the gym safety and enjoy real rock!
Climb on!

The two best gyms I know have this setup on their topropes (Planet Granite and Sender One). They also have a rope for nearly every climb instead of making 3-4 climbs "share" a rope. I rarely toprope but I think it's a great system. Keeps people moving along and makes it impossible for inexperienced climbers to thread a Grigri backwards. Both of those same gyms are really diligent about their lead checkouts. So if you don't know how to thread a GriGri or set up an ATC it's toproping forever for you. Which is just fine for some.