New and Experienced Climbers over 51

Our local superhero Erik Erikson having a checkout run. This guy has more than 80 different El Cap routes under his belt. 5.13 trad climber/Ice/8000meter peaks Including Manaslu death routes. So Cal's best all-around dude. PS he is 63. Still going strong.

Señor Arroz wrote: Interesting point about "aggregation of marginal gains." I think that's basically the same thing as Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule. There are overt a conscious things that can be taught in a didactic way. For example it's easy for me to tell you how to tie a figure 8 knot or to paddle a surfboard right. But learning how to read the ocean and make good wave selection is something that only comes with a lot of time in the water. Same exact thing with finding tiny holds that let you scamper up a 5.12 climb.

I sometimes go back and climb things that were impossible for me just even a few years ago. I remember these climbs as totally blank and featureless. Nothing to hold onto. Now, with more practice and skills, I find all sorts of features that were truly invisible without the benefit of more time in the saddle.

Senor... so glad you said this.  While I'm not experienced enough yet to make big progress on face climbs or anything requiring upper body strength... I DO see progress on slab.  I recall the first few climbs on a slab route just feeling that there was NOTHING to hold onto, nothing to step on.  A feeling that at any moment I could do a belly slide all the way down.  And now it's like... oh yea! there's a tiny milimeter I can stick a foot on, or lean into with a single finger.  Really nice.    

 

Climbing is like finishing concrete, the only way to get good at it is to do it.

And everyone stinks at both, at first......

End of thread...... ;)

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Different route East Side Sierras 11d just posted it because it looks similar to Lori's photo.

Wondered why it looked doable?  Now I know...

Lori Milas wrote:

Senor... so glad you said this.  While I'm not experienced enough yet to make big progress on face climbs or anything requiring upper body strength... I DO see progress on slab.  I recall the first few climbs on a slab route just feeling that there was NOTHING to hold onto, nothing to step on.  A feeling that at any moment I could do a belly slide all the way down.  And now it's like... oh yea! there's a tiny milimeter I can stick a foot on, or lean into with a single finger.  Really nice.    

 

That's great to hear. Honestly, though, I can't think of many things in climbing that require upper body strength. Hand strength, yes. Forearm strength, sure, because that's where gripping is really powered. But it's not like we're out there doing 100 pull-ups in a row. Your improvements will come from technique far more than from building upper body strength. Don't let the myth of upper body strength become some sort of excuse. 

When we going climbing Arroz?

Jeffrey Constine wrote: When we going climbing Arroz?

When this heat breaks?

I drove back up to Donner Summit to climb the same crack I climbed  a few weeks ago. I thought that surely this time it would be that much easier, but I was wrong.  After 3 long climbs it just wore me out. I was thinking of Lovena working so diligently on that wonderful indoor crack.  Mine just wasn’t cooperating.  

In my business I am always reminded to “set expectations” and never overpromise.  I think it would help me to expect this (crack climbing) to take time.

On the upside the shoes I finally bought helped enormously. I felt no pain and that was just shocking...   I couldn’t find Lovena’s Alturas but got TC Pro, with some ankle support.  Also, I took my own rope, set my own anchors, and did not go with a guide. So maybe that was the real win.

New Rule: include something fun when working on really difficult projects.  If I had saved some energy there were all kinds of fun-looking slabs I could have hopped onto... 

May I ask a question about ropes?  Today my climbing project was maybe 20 feet and the way I was climbing every inch counted. Yet when I rested or fell the rope lengthened and dropped me a foot or more each time.  It was frustrating to sag right back to the place I had finally gotten through and have to climb it again. My belayer swore he had me tight.
It’s a pretty new rope and I understand they are made to stretch to prevent shock in long hard falls.
Are there different ropes for different climbing purposes? 

Sometimes people expressly use Static ropes for TRing a proj....a lead rope stretches some ~5-7% under boy weight, but up to 30-35% in a severe fall...

Gyms use static ropes for their TRs (only 3% total)....newbies are commonly shocked that a lead rope stretches so much under TR.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Sometimes people expressly use Static ropes for TRing a proj....a lead rope stretches some ~3-5% under boy weight, but up to 30-35% in a severe fall...

Gyms use static ropes for their TRs....newbies are commonly shocked that a lead rope stretches so much under TR.

Oh man... I feel VERY foolish! And I owe my belayer an apology. Thank you for that info Harumpster. 

I don’t know what kind of ropes my guides have used, but you’re right! In the gym if I have to rest on a rope I stay exactly where I left off.  On today’s climbs I just listed into the sunset.
I’m guessing there is a shorter more appropriate rope for this kind of climbing.   

Lori Milas wrote: I drove back up to Donner Summit to climb the same crack I climbed  a few weeks ago. I thought that surely this time it would be that much easier, but I was wrong.  After 3 long climbs it just wore me out. I was thinking of Lovena working so diligently on that wonderful indoor crack.  Mine just wasn’t cooperating.  

In my business I am always reminded to “set expectations” and never overpromise.  I think it would help me to expect this (crack climbing) to take time.

On the upside the shoes I finally bought helped enormously. I felt no pain and that was just shocking...   I couldn’t find Lovena’s Alturas but got TC Pro, with some ankle support.  Also, I took my own rope, set my own anchors, and did not go with a guide. So maybe that was the real win.

New Rule: include something fun when working on really difficult projects.  If I had saved some energy there were all kinds of fun-looking slabs I could have hopped onto...

Keep at it, Lori...it will take some time but it will happen! I'm still learning about crack climbing...in fact, my lessons are limited to the hand sized crack (in the video). And I practice on that crack as much as possible. When I first started, I could barely get up a quarter of that crack without stopping to rest. Now I can get up half way up. LOL! It's def an endurance route and I can feel my fitness getting better. In the gym on easy routes, I also practice "locking off" ....this helps build strength needed for locking off arms when I step up. I'm now starting to be conscious of all my jams and placements.

So glad you found a good fit with the La Sportiva TC Pros. REI had these in stock and I tried on 3 sizes but I just didn't like the fit....they actually hurt my feet. The Butora Altura Green were only available online so I ordered 3 pairs of Alturas in 3 different sizes because I didn't know what size I took in this brand. The right ones fit me perfectly right out of the box and there was not much breaking in. 

The UIAA standard for static elongation of dynamic climbing ropes is that it must be less than 10% with an 80 kg load.  I don't know average values, but I think they tend to run at least 5% nowadays.  I've seen 7% just in casual browsing.

True static ropes are not used in gyms as far as I know.  Gym ropes are made to take a lot of wear (so high sheath percentages), and this reduces their static elongation numbers.  These numbers are further reduced because of usage. The ropes are subjected to far more loading the vast majority of climbing ropes used outdoors and lose elasticity.  For top-roping, many gyms use a turn around a cylinder which, by virtue of the friction provided,  restricts most of the stretching to the portion of the rope from climber to cylinder, so the stretch percentage applies mostly to half the rope out.  For all these reasons, the amount of stretch experienced in the gym is likely to be noiticeably less than outdoors.

Finally, 80 kg is about 176 lbs.  Lighter climbers will experience proportionately less stretch.

rgold wrote: The UIAA standard for static elongation of dynamic climbing ropes is that it must be less than 10% with an 80 kg load.  I don't know average values, but I think they tend to run at least 5% nowadays.  I've seen 7% just in casual browsing.

True static ropes are not used in gyms as far as I know.  Gym ropes are made to take a lot of wear (so high sheath percentages), and this reduces their static elongation numbers.  These numbers are further reduced because of usage. The ropes are subjected to far more loading the vast majority of climbing ropes used outdoors and lose elasticity.  For top-roping, many gyms use a turn around a cylinder which, by virtue of the friction provided,  restricts most of the stretching to the portion of the rope from climber to cylinder, so the stretch percentage applies mostly to half the rope out.  For all these reasons, the amount of stretch experienced in the gym is likely to be noiticeably less than outdoors.

Finally, 80 kg is about 176 lbs.  Lighter climbers will experience proportionately less stretch.

Yes, I am using "static" very casually. I think they are "working ropes" and stretch like 3-4% max or something. They can't use true static ropes or climbers will get injured in short falls.

I have a pair of TC Pros, Lori, and LOVE them in the cracks. Perfect protection for your toes and sides of your feet. And they smear well on slab, too. 

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh man... I feel VERY foolish! And I owe my belayer an apology. Thank you for that info Harumpster. 

I don’t know what kind of ropes my guides have used, but you’re right! In the gym if I have to rest on a rope I stay exactly where I left off.  On today’s climbs I just listed into the sunset.
I’m guessing there is a shorter more appropriate rope for this kind of climbing.   

Lori, your belayer wasn't doing anything wrong. However, I've belayed my son when he's working projects and he's done the same for me. Yes, there are times of frustration when you don't want to lose half an inch, lol! And, not quite that, but your belayer can work to keep you from losing those dinky bits of progress to rope stretch. It requires sitting into the rope on the belayers side, hunkering down, and taking the fall (and stretch) on their side of the rope. Tiny falls, obviously, on a single move you're working repeatedly.

On the climber's end though, you can't sit there very long, or you will "ooze" down more than the belayer can help you with. Good incentive to not hang! This is one of the times many like a grigri for belaying, although we were both doing this with ATCs.

Lately, I've brought my lead rope to the gym and put some transitioning to outside climbers on my own rope, on top rope. I spent some time showing them how different a newish dynamic rope is from a gym rope. Also let them catch, and take, some top roped "lead" falls (with a bit of slack) on the dynamic rope, and have their feet pulled off the ground in a catch. All very different than the gym top roping!

Best, Helen

So how was everyone's weekend? I count mine a success. Did a grade 22 on top rope at the indoor gym on Sat, then taught myself to use a sewing machine to patch my shirt Sat night by watching YouTube videos then went back to the gym today and sent a V4 (yellow holds on the pic). Hope all you fellow oldies crushed

Señor Arroz wrote: I have a pair of TC Pros, Lori, and LOVE them in the cracks. Perfect protection for your toes and sides of your feet. And they smear well on slab, too. 

Ditto on the TC Pros-- so versatile! Handle slabs (particularly micro-edging as opposed to smearing slabs), cracks, vertical edging/crimping wonderfully. Has the rep of being a granite shoe, but they have performed superbly for me on sandstone slabs and vertical face climbs. Not good for roofs or overhangs or rounded holds-- too stiff. One of the four shoes that I take on every outdoor trip.

Old lady H wrote:

Lori, your belayer wasn't doing anything wrong. However, I've belayed my son when he's working projects and he's done the same for me. Yes, there are times of frustration when you don't want to lose half an inch, lol! And, not quite that, but your belayer can work to keep you from losing those dinky bits of progress to rope stretch. It requires sitting into the rope on the belayers side, hunkering down, and taking the fall (and stretch) on their side of the rope. Tiny falls, obviously, on a single move you're working repeatedly.

On the climber's end though, you can't sit there very long, or you will "ooze" down more than the belayer can help you with. Good incentive to not hang! This is one of the times many like a grigri for belaying, although we were both doing this with ATCs.

Lately, I've brought my lead rope to the gym and put some transitioning to outside climbers on my own rope, on top rope. I spent some time showing them how different a newish dynamic rope is from a gym rope. Also let them catch, and take, some top roped "lead" falls (with a bit of slack) on the dynamic rope, and have their feet pulled off the ground in a catch. All very different than the gym top roping!

Best, Helen

Helen!  Thank you, as always!  My belayer's name is Danny... and he felt bad.  Several times the rope stretched so much I wound up standing back on the ground...  falling after the first few steps.  But he recalled watching Nelson at Joshua Tree "jump" and then heavily pull back on the rope when I would be attempting something where I might fall.  I thought Nelson was trying to give me a wedgie.    We have to try to find the humor in things!  Danny said he held me as  tightly as he could but couldn't stop the stretch of the rope.  

I'm hoping someone will weigh in, then, on perhaps a good second rope to have.  It's a question I was going to ask back when we were discussing the weight of my backpack... a new 200 foot rope is very heavy.  Turns out, my local climbs just aren't that tall.  So, maybe a more static, shorter rope is in order, if they make those.  A "project" rope.

I woke up this morning laughing about shoes.  I have girlfriends who have literally dozens of pairs of shoes.  I have employees who have shown up daily in 4 inch heels... sometimes with tassels.  I can't force myself to go out and buy shoes, so I've been known to live in a pair of Converse.  But now I have four pairs of climbing shoes... and I'm pretty sure it's not nearly enough.    When I was slipping and sliding so badly on slab at Joshua Tree I walked into the little local shop called Nomads and asked them if my problem could POSSIBLY be my shoes?  That turned into an in depth inspection of my shoes, the angle and type of rock I was climbing... and the recommendation was to get some new shoes.  And resole my old ones with "C4" rubber.  Those new Scarpas turned my life around, from the moment I stepped back onto that slab I felt I could climb anything...  and I can't speak highly enough of the TC Pro's.  I don't know if I climbed any better yesterday, but at least I was not in excruciating pain.  They were just plain comfortable!  

Senor, glad your TC Pro's work so well for you.  That's because you can channel your inner Tommy Caldwell now.  Probably if Tommy knew I had a pair of his shoes he'd take them away from me.   

I'm taking part of Sunday morning to watch the Garmin Youtube videos.  The most in-depth (by HikingGuy) says right up front... "It's definitely not a tool I use for navigation, even though it has the maps on there, it's not great."  He uses it for texting and SOS primarily. Earlier this week I headed out for a 4 mile walk before dawn with my Garmin... through meadows and bike trails that I already know... to see how it would do with waypoints and getting me back home.  If I had relied on my Garmin at this point, I wouldn't have found home again.  It's still probably user error... and I'll watch all the videos and keep working with it.  But there's no getting around map and compass, I guess.