Rename that route NOW! The topic.

NickMartel wrote: I don’t think re-naming routes is ok. If the name is so offensive then chop the route but the name is integral to the work and cost the FA put into the route so I’m my mind it’s all or nothing either you deal with your discomfort (any maybe grow as a person) or you don’t use the FA’s hardware.

Papa Johns?

Can I claim an FA for this? Pretty sure noone else has climbed it although I don't have the best photos to prove it.

PosiDave wrote: I have never used a racist slur in a route name. 
My question was where do you draw the line on what is offensive since it is so varied. 

And if a minority made a climb, are they to not allowed to make a lighthearted joke about them self if they seem ok with it?

If I find a drug reference offensive in climbing, should that mean climbing Magazines and community should stop pushing weed/booze as part of the community as it is offensive to me or against a religious belief? 

Your name on MP could be offensive if you know what all the meanings of Posi are.

Instead of renaming the route, shouldn't we lynch the author? Or if they're dead dig them up?
These aggressions cannot stand.

ViperScale . wrote:

Living in US is for privileged people... we can talk after you spend months living in a dirt floor hut in front of a campfire for cooking food.

Mate i have spent months working in third world countries with locals. Where you can’t eat the food or drink the water because it makes you spend 4-6 hours a day shitty uncontrolaby

You know, places where you have a good chance to get held hostage by locals in exchange for money. 
Comparing third world countries to American issues isn’t really Relevant. I am getting at the fact that a bunch of white dudes on MP are telling people (some who are mixed race) what they should be offended by. 

Anyone mention the law of unintended consequences?
Rampant butthurtism and SJW culture led directly to Donald Trump.
Watching all this pearl clutching only serves to motivate me to use even worse names than I already do.
Why not consider using persuasion instead of coercion?
If I think words would negatively affect certain people who are only trying to live their lives, I won't do it.
But some triggered activist gets in my face, and I'm responding with at least matching energy if not more. 

Marcelo F wrote:

Yep, that was the response that thread got, too. We seemed to settle on, “Minorities are just not into climbing. If they want to get into it, they can do it on their own. Look how open minded and tolerant we already are. WHAT ELSE do you want from us?”

So some of us asked that you stop using racist slurs in route names. And here is the response...
How do you guys know so well what we are interested in?

I have never used a racist slur in a route name. 

My question was where do you draw the line on what is offensive since it is so varied. 
And if a minority made a climb, are they to not allowed to make a lighthearted joke about them self if they seem ok with it?
If I find a drug reference offensive in climbing, should that mean climbing Magazines and community should stop pushing weed/booze as part of the community as it is offensive to me or against a religious belief? 

PosiDave wrote:

I have never used a racist slur in a route name. 

My question was where do you draw the line on what is offensive since it is so varied. 
And if a minority made a climb, are they to not allowed to make a lighthearted joke about them self if they seem ok with it?
If I find a drug reference offensive in climbing, should that mean climbing Magazines and community should stop pushing weed/booze as part of the community as it is offensive to me or against a religious belief? 

There are no authority figures in climbing. Name your route whatever you want. I’m not asking MP to change route names, I’m asking that FAs don’t use racist slurs in route names no matter what their background is- but it is ultimately up to them. That’s all. I can see that this may not have been clear at first.Thank you for not using slurs in your route names.  

NickMartel wrote: I don’t think re-naming routes is ok. If the name is so offensive then chop the route but the name is integral to the work and cost the FA put into the route so I’m my mind it’s all or nothing either you deal with your discomfort (any maybe grow as a person) or you don’t use the FA’s hardware.

How is the name integral to the work and cost of the route? 

Mike Lane wrote: Anyone mention the law of unintended consequences?

Unintended consequences such as, the book "Little House On The Prairie" is now banned from schools, and the writers name is now scrubbed from the library award. How the hell is this book banned?
This is exactly what is happening all over the place. If everything is deleted from history because it is offensive, we will have no reminder of what we've had to endure, thus repeating the mistakes our forefathers made. History will repeat itself once it is forgotten. We need to be able to stand strong without oppressing ourselves.

mediocre wrote:

How is the name integral to the work and cost of the route? 

Isn’t it the tradition of FA names route, repeat it in said style (don’t retro bolt), and gives a roundabout grade?

I don’t think using N**** or wetback in a climb name is respectful (unless you are of that race and then who cares). But the demand to PC people into submission doesn’t work and just forces a defined line of which side are you on. This is across modern culture and not just climbing names
I Was even refused service somewhere for wearing a company uniform by a yuppie white girl. She literally equated my blue collar career as being a racist white man. The irony of calling a minority racist because they look white and don’t meet your views of life, is literally the point we have reached. 
 That is why I personally am more offended by people trying to tell others what should offend them. 

Mike Lane wrote: Anyone mention the law of unintended consequences?
Rampant butthurtism and SJW culture led directly to Donald Trump.
Watching all this pearl clutching only serves to motivate me to use even worse names than I already do.
Why not consider using persuasion instead of coercion?
If I think words would negatively affect certain people who are only trying to live their lives, I won't do it.
But some triggered activist gets in my face, and I'm responding with at least matching energy if not more. 

Isn't this thread about persuasion instead of coercion? Some people find naming a CO sport route "Porch Monkey" distasteful and mention that in this case, and a few others mentioned here, it seems a reasonable tradeoff to overrule the FA's naming rights to make the sport feel more welcoming. But nobody is coercing, we just want to change your mind. Nobody is contacting REI to say MP supports racist route names, and nobody is proposing hiding the name change from history.

Super Fluke wrote:
Unintended consequences such as, the book "Little House On The Prairie" is now banned from schools, and the writers name is now scrubbed from the library award. How the hell is this book banned?
This is exactly what is happening all over the place. If everything is deleted from history because it is offensive, we will have no reminder of what we've had to endure, thus repeating the mistakes our forefathers made. History will repeat itself once it is forgotten. We need to be able to stand strong without oppressing ourselves.

This debate rages in my hometown of Richmond, VA, all the time around Confederate monuments, and I understand your point in that context, but I fail to see how a 1988 sport route in CO named after a racist stereotype of African American laziness is really a monument to our forefather's mistakes... 

Changing a few route names is not censorship of history, it happens everytime an aid route is freed, and the aid route's name is still recorded and remembered, just used less when referring to the route.

PosiDave wrote:

Isn’t it the tradition of FA names route, repeat it in said style (don’t retro bolt), and gives a roundabout grade?

I don’t think using N**** or wetback in a climb name is respectful (unless you are of that race and then who cares). But the demand to PC people into submission doesn’t work and just forces a defined line of which side are you on. This is across modern culture and not just climbing names
I Was even refused service somewhere for wearing a company uniform by a yuppie white girl. She literally equated my blue collar career as being a racist white man. The irony of calling a minority racist because they look white and don’t meet your views of life, is literally the point we have reached. 
 That is why I personally am more offended by people trying to tell others what should offend them. 

What I’m saying is that Chrymson Chrysallis would still be Chrymson Chrysallis whether it had that name or some offensive name. the Bachar Yerian would still be the Bachar Yerian whether they named it that or some offensive name. It may be customary for the FA to name the route, but the name is not integral to the route. 

And I disagree that just because you’re Mexican, Black or Chinese that you should be able to use racial slurs about your own people all willy nilly. It’s an insult to those who have faced and fought real racism on a systemic level to be taken seriously and equally in their day to day lives. I understand the “owning the term” argument, but personally I think it’s a cop out. 

Franck Vee wrote:

What's the full name? Is it on MP?

"Slicker Than A ... "

Also, the rest of this thread is horrible.  Seriously.  The majority of the rampant yellers and trolls on this site are pretty displaced and removed from 99% of the climbers I know.

Mike Lane wrote: Anyone mention the law of unintended consequences?
Rampant butthurtism and SJW culture led directly to Donald Trump.
Watching all this pearl clutching only serves to motivate me to use even worse names than I already do.
Why not consider using persuasion instead of coercion?
If I think words would negatively affect certain people who are only trying to live their lives, I won't do it.
But some triggered activist gets in my face, and I'm responding with at least matching energy if not more. 

Sounds like you get triggered by triggers.

You think it's ridiculous that someone would have such a strong reaction to something, but choose to respond with a strong(er) reaction, despite it going against what you would normally do. That's even worse. THAT is more what "led directly to Donald Trump."

Throwing around "SJW" is such a lazy way around arguing why someone is wrong to try to persuade others to make positive changes. This isn't coercion. You aren't being coerced. Your God-given right to say things that offend people is not being taken away. MP just wouldn't be a vehicle for you to deliver your speech. Nobody here is saying the government should storm the crag and tear down these routes and arrest FAs for naming them a certain way. It's within the right of MP to moderate its content to fulfill its mission. I think promoting a welcoming environment is (or should be) a mission of MP.
__________

Renaming routes won't lead down a slippery slope to people forgetting history because it was all erased in the Great SJW Purge. Equating a website owned by a company that values and promotes diversity limiting speech that runs counter to those values to public schools banning books is laughable. Public schools serve to inform and enhance understanding; in that context, exposure to highly offensive speech is important. Highly offensive speech on a website about climbing rocks is not important. At least to me, and probably those with the right to actually implement those changes.

Pnelson wrote:

"Slicker Than A ... "

Also, the rest of this thread is horrible.  Seriously.  The majority of the rampant yellers and trolls on this site are pretty displaced and removed from 99% of the climbers I know.

I'd be curious to know if the folks on this thread view it as harmful SJW censorship for the guidebook author and Mountain Project to use the route's acronym rather than the full name as the first ascensionists intended? Using the acronym for some of the routes listed in this thread seems a fair compromise.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105947521/stanc

Andy Eiter wrote:

Sounds like you get triggered by triggers.

You think it's ridiculous that someone would have such a strong reaction to something, but choose to respond with a strong(er) reaction, despite it going against what you would normally do. That's even worse. THAT is more what "led directly to Donald Trump."

Throwing around "SJW" is such a lazy way around arguing why someone is wrong to try to persuade others to make positive changes. This isn't coercion. You aren't being coerced. Your God-given right to say things that offend people is not being taken away. MP just wouldn't be a vehicle for you to deliver your speech. Nobody here is saying the government should storm the crag and tear down these routes and arrest FAs for naming them a certain way. It's within the right of MP to moderate its content to fulfill its mission. I think promoting a welcoming environment is (or should be) a mission of MP.
__________

Renaming routes won't lead down a slippery slope to people forgetting history because it was all erased in the Great SJW Purge. Equating a website owned by a company that values and promotes diversity limiting speech that runs counter to those values to public schools banning books is laughable. Public schools serve to inform and enhance understanding; in that context, exposure to highly offensive speech is important. Highly offensive speech on a website about climbing rocks is not important. At least to me, and probably those with the right to actually implement those changes.

Persuading is persuading. Unilaterally changing names is not persuading, it is an act of aggression, albeit  very mild, but still aggression.

By stronger reaction, that means incentivising further douchebaggery. Not flipping out or some shit.

Renaming routes very much is a slippery slope because it legitimizes the notion of approved speech and a sense of elitism because how the Hell do you decide who does the naming? A committee? An Official Renamer?

Listening to you rationalize the imposition of one's values over another so casually signals to me a much larger malaise that I see in all you kids, and that is the propensity to Groupthink. And where there is Groupthink, there is Propagandization from where it originated. And Propagandization is not only never a good thing, but also is the tool of zealots.
Of course this entire exercise here is ridiculous. It's only rocks after all. But in a way it is also highlighting the absence of independent thinking the public schools have been systematically striving for. Just be obedient, go along  with what we tell you and pay your taxes.
Meanwhile, I feel a new sense of motivation to fire up the drill and start generating things to name

Jack Quarless wrote: naming routes foul names was one of the best part of climbing in the 90's. It was a component and reward of first ascents. We had no idea everyone was gonna eat a ton of soy, watch blinking screens, and become so fucking emotionally sensitive. If we had know this, we would have tried harder, sorry. Call it whatever you want, we named it that shit as a joke, and if you don't like it, fucking call it something else. Perhaps, "sisgen hegemonic males eating Dick" that's pretty Funny too. Now on with the destruction of planet earth you imbeciles. 

Best post in the thread.

Duncan Friches wrote:  What do you feel is being lost?

When any person, for any reason at all, can just simply say "I'm offended by____" and the rest of the world is just supposed to bend over backwards over it, don't you think that is giving them just a little too much power based simply on their "feeling" offended.

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

When any person, for any reason at all, can just simply say "I'm offended by____" and the rest of the world is just supposed to bend over backwards over it, don't you think that is giving them just a little too much power based simply on their "feeling" offended.

Everyone is special.

These are the same people bitching about climbing grades, retrobolting and trying to sell used gear on their perceived value and Not actualValue.
Hell the one guy wants to bad mouth minorities for perpetuating terms for their own race (like the N word). If that isn’t the white man telling those lesser thanks how to be civIlized, I don’t know what it is. 
Guess I won’t be buying any sleeping bagsoff MP, since you PC fascists will fill themWith small pox.

We have a local classic called Liposuction. I think the name should be changed because it might be offensive to overweight wealthy people who can pay to look skinnier.

China doll offensive ... ? Some of you must really hate eating off your mother's good plates ... can you seriously be offended by a word you don't know the meaning of ... ? I think that's the philosophical question in all this ...