Good dry rope for top roping

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Well, it's still observed data, but I see your point: the observed data isn't what Buck Rio said, and his conclusion doesn't follow from the observed data.

Don't attribute that shit to me. It was 800 cycles to half the strength of new rope, not to failure. And it wasn't my conclusion, it was the testers conclusion to not use top ropes to lead with.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=975rkB2JDz8

I'm old school when it comes to gear. I'll use a rope until it is core shot or has flat spots. But once a rope is designated a top rope by me, it no longer gets led on, because it is shot as a lead rope.

I own a mammut 9.8 double dry eternity.   It is the perfect rope for a new climber in that has a super burly sheath (rope break due to cutting generally, not falls...) And is think enough for heavy toproping.  It is also not so thick that you can't lead with it quite handily.     When I replace it I will do so with a 9.5 or 9.1 but that is because I am mostly leading these days.      

Get the 9.8.  it is a good compromise.  Also, don't bother with the double dry unless you ice climb.   If money is nbd the outer dry keeps the rope cleaner apparently.

Finally, there seems nothing wrong with designating a top rope only rope, but to call it "shot" when you top rope on it is silly.  To my knowledge no one is breaking ropes on falls without cutting them on sharp rock, though I am open to being educated.  A rope being at half strength is still quite bomber.  

Buck Rio wrote: There is a guy called Walter Seabirt that has done some research on top roping affects on rope strength. His conclusion was once a top rope, always a top rope. Don't use it for leading. He loaded ropes repeatedly over a carabiner diameter radius, and then pull tested them.  They were good up until about 800 loadings, then they went downhill pretty fast.

So by all means get a beefy rope for top roping, but get something else for leading.  When I was your age I only had 1 rope, a Sterling Marathon 10.5mm, I used it for everything. I abused the shit out of it. So take it for what its worth.

Hold up. there are a whole bunch of issues with this test, and its supposed conclusion:

1. Most importantly, according to the video (see this screenshot at 6:32 specifically: https://youtu.be/975rkB2JDz8?t=6m32s), this data is for STATIC ROPES.  You don't lead on a static rope, and most climbers don't toprope on one either (since most climbers just TR on one of their dynamic lead ropes), so that makes the whole thing entirely moot.  Static and dynamic ropes have different construction and it would be quite a stretch (ha!) to assume that these results apply to all static ropes, let alone static and dynamic ropes.
2. The sample size in this test is not very big, nor does it do any comparison to other rope usage.  All it says is that this particular static rope loses strength after bending it back and forth a lot of times.  That is insufficient evidence to make the wide-reaching conclusions about lead ropes you're trying to make.
3. He suggests the the mechanism for damage is heat, but his test isn't the same as the real world, unless you run up and down a climb 800 times in quick succession like his cycling rig (with the rope fully loaded on the way up. which doesn't happen unless you just sit on the rope and have your partner haul you up at high speed).  Real world conditions could have significantly different thermal behavior.
4. The test measured reduction in breaking strength as a result of number of times the rope passed over a carabiner-like radius.  Nothing in this test is specific to toproping.  You will get effectively the exact same amount of wear after 800 lowers after leads than you will after 800 lowers after a TR.  So, even if you think the results apply to your dynamic rope, in no way does this imply that a rope used for TR isn't safe to lead on.  That's a ridiculous conclusion.  If you have a rope you've designated for leading on, unless you base jump off the top of every pitch, or only climb routes with walk-offs, your lead rope has the EXACT SAME amount of wear on it from lowering as your special TR rope.
5. I am not aware of a single rope failure in the field that can be attributed to this behavior, be it leading or TRing.
6. I am not aware of a single rope manufacturer recommending different ropes for TRing and leading.
7. Most climbers TR and lead (or lead and then follow, which is the same as TRing) on the same rope, which is a mountain of (anecdotal) data that contradicts these findings.

David Kerkeslager wrote:I don't know about y'all, but I'm a top rope tough guy. I'll willingly top rope stuff that I might not even be able to get up on top rope, with all manner of falls, hangdogging, swings, and (I admit) Ondra-style screaming. The same is not true for leading. Sure, a lead fall puts more strain on the rope than a top rope fall, but I can count on my hands the number of lead falls I've taken this year. I probably take more falls in a single hard top rope climb than I do in an entire season of leading. So that's one possible explanation for why top ropes might get more damage than lead ropes.

1. Don't assume that all other climbers are top rope heroes.  Many sport climbers (and likely plenty of trad climbers) take more falls on their main rope than TR burns.
2. Falling on TR isn't the mechanism for damage tested in the Youtube video anyway, it's repeated back-and-forth cycling under load.

 I don't have a sure explanation for why Seabirt observed what Seabirt observed, but unless you're accusing him of lying, he saw ropes get damaged more TRing than leading, and we need to fit our logic to those facts, not try to fit the facts to our presupposed logic.

No, that's not what he measured at all.

First of all, he didn't do ANY tests (or, at least, they are not described in that video) related to dynamic ropes, or ropes used on lead.  So, you positively cannot say that "he saw ropes get damaged more TRing than leading".  If he didn't test lead ropes, how can you possibly say that the damage from TRing is "more'?  There is no comparative aspect to this study.

Second of all, it's probably even a stretch to say that he tested the effects of TRing on ropes.  He didn't really.  He tested the effect of bending a (again, static) rope back and forth over a bar of approximately the radius of a carabiner.  That is NOT a scenario unique to top roping.  That is what happens (or very close to it) when you TR, lower after leading, belay/lower with an ATC or even bend ropes around a carabiner during a rappel.  So, while the tests definitely prove a loss of strength (of a static rope) due to bending around a carabiner, they do NOTHING to suggest any kind of DIFFERENT wear patterns between TRing and leading.

All this test says is that bending a static rope back and forth repeatedly decreases the strength.  If you think this extends to wild conclusions about the relative effect of TRing and leading on a dynamic rope, that's not logic.

Edit: I'm trying not to get involved in arguments like these, but c'mon guys, we shouldn't be advocating kooky fringe practices to a new climber who might not be able to distinguish good ideas from bad ones, based on one questionable test with limited data that doesn't even really apply to the scenario we're talking about.

Kyle Tarry wrote: Edit: I'm trying not to get involved in arguments like these, but c'mon guys, we shouldn't be advocating kooky fringe practices to a new climber who might not be able to distinguish good ideas from bad ones, based on one questionable test with limited data that doesn't even really apply to the scenario we're talking about.

Sorry I brought it up...I am a hypocrite, because I seriously use a rope until one of my partners refuses to climb on the thing. Then I whack off the ends and use it as a top rope.  I've never heard of a rope failing due to proper use. My current "old" rope is from 2008, and while I use it for TR, I wouldn't hesitate to lead on it, although it is a 10.5mm so might not make it through a GriGri. 

I guess I brought it up as an aside, I did not notice the test was with static line (what gym uses static?).

Yeah, it looks like I misunderstood both the test and Buck's opinion. My apologies.

Sorry my thread has created so much discussion.  I’m just looking for a good rope to use to top rope rock and potentially ice. Thanks for those that have recommended some solid ropes. I’m seriosuly contemplating whether I want to go for the Mammut eternity or Sterling Marathon.  I’m also looking at the Edelrid Tommy Caldwell Prodry duotec 9.6mm rope.  Anybody have anything good or bad to say about those Edelrid’s?

Ken Noyce wrote:

Wait, this is your first rope and you are hoping to spend around $250 and want it to be dry?  Can I ask you why?  A first rope used primarily for toproping will get trashed quickly regardless of the type or brand.  You should be looking for something in the 10mm diameter range for around $120.  Unless you are planning on using it for ice climbing there is absolutely no reason you need a dry rope either.  Just get a cheap beater rope and call it good.  Sierra Trading Post is a good place to look for inexpensive ropes, sign up for their deal flyer emails and get 25% of coupons regularly.

^ This.  Not to mention, if you get a dry rope and top rope a shit ton on it, then go ice climbing, you'll pretty much have effectively worn off the dry treatment by that time.  If you're going to spend $250 bucks on one rope, don't.  If you want to spend that money anyway, up it to $300, get a good, relatively inexpensive (as far as dry ropes go) 9.5 for ice climbing, and get a much cheaper beater 10mm for top-roping.

Peter Herman wrote: Sorry my thread has created so much discussion.  

Dude, don't worry about that.  People on here loooooove to piss and moan and boast how knowledgeable they are and throw out "sick burns".  Comes with the territory.  You could ask a question about how many millimeters are in a 9.8mm rope and mfkrs would argue that shit and start calling each other names.

Peter Herman wrote: Sorry my thread has created so much discussion.  I’m just looking for a good rope to use to top rope rock and potentially ice. Thanks for those that have recommended some solid ropes. I’m seriosuly contemplating whether I want to go for the Mammut eternity or Sterling Marathon.  I’m also looking at the Edelrid Tommy Caldwell Prodry duotec 9.6mm rope.  Anybody have anything good or bad to say about those Edelrid’s?

I tend to like the feel of Edelrid ropes, but the duotec is by far the worst middle marking method that I have ever seen.  Duotec is where in the place of one two thread section of the rope they run a really thin piece of webbing that is black for half the length of the rope and green for the other half.  The problem is that the thin webbing gets fuzzy really fast compared to the main yarn of the rope making the rope look worn out prematurely.  Seriously, you should get that black diamond 9.6 on sierra trading post, I can try to shoot you a code for 25% off on friday when it comes.

Peter Herman wrote: Sorry my thread has created so much discussion.  I’m just looking for a good rope to use to top rope rock and potentially ice. Thanks for those that have recommended some solid ropes. I’m seriosuly contemplating whether I want to go for the Mammut eternity or Sterling Marathon.  I’m also looking at the Edelrid Tommy Caldwell Prodry duotec 9.6mm rope.  Anybody have anything good or bad to say about those Edelrid’s?

Peter I would suggest getting a cheap and fat rope for rock and a nicer dry treated rope to be *dedicated* for ice. You will get the sheath nice and fuzzy top roping on rock, this wears off the dry coating and gives tons of surface area for water to freeze to when you get on ice. On a trip to canmore we had the sheath of my partners 7.5 mammuts freeze so solidly that you had to crush the rope back and forth by hand, every inch of it, so that it would feed through an atc and bend around a carabiner. PITA would be putting it lightly. Those ropes had been on half a dozen or so alpine rock routes, prior to rock use they were stellar on ice.

Partners the same day were using a beal joker that had ONLY seen ice, it absorbed almost nothing and was a breeze to belay with.