R Rated Sport is Trad

Plug some marginal gear and try not to whip on it. Then we can talk.

Tell that to the 120’ route with 7 bolts I just did in j-tree.  But those 30’ whips are super chill on a slab route ;).

Hamish Malin wrote: Tell that to the 120’ route with 7 bolts I just did in j-tree.  But those 30’ whips are super chill on a slab route ;).

I don't think it can really be called a whip on slab. Maybe a scrape?

I once took a slab fall where the only thing preventing me from taking a factor 2 fall onto the anchor was an old rusty piton at my waist. Well, the only thing other than the slab. I yelled "falling!" and slowly squelched to a stop with the piton at chest height, my hands not holding anything, the rope completely slack, and two rubber streaks on the rock running up from my shoes.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106227873/pulp-friction?method=dropdown&query=pulp%20fricti&search=1&type=route
Not a whip? I don't think you've climbed hard slab.

A whip on slab is called a cheese-grater 

The type of protection is not what makes a route sport or traditional. The ethics by which it was first climbed do that. You’re right there are no R rated sport routes, defeats the whole purpose of sport climbing.

Long runout slabs routes where the bolts were drilled/placed on lead are 100% traditional climbs. An example is S-Direct in LCC, one of my favorites, fully bolted trad route.

I’ve taken that “whip”. Shredded my PAS (back when I used those) and broke my foot.  There’s nothing sporty about it.  

Peter J wrote: https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106227873/pulp-friction?method=dropdown&query=pulp%20fricti&search=1&type=route
Not a whip? I don't think you've climbed hard slab.

I don't mean that a long fall on slab isn't as respectable as a whip--a long fall on slab is way scarier than a long fall into air. I mean that a long slab fall doesn't make a whipping sound.

BrokenChairs BrettC wrote: The type of protection is not what makes a route sport or traditional. The ethics by which it was first climbed do that. You’re right there are no R rated sport routes, defeats the whole purpose of sport climbing.

Long runout slabs routes where the bolts were drilled/placed on lead are 100% traditional climbs. An example is S-Direct in LCC, one of my favorites, fully bolted trad route.

I’ve taken that “whip”. Shredded my PAS (back when I used those) and broke my foot.  There’s nothing sporty about it.  

Its only traditional if you are drilling the bolts (by hand!) yourself on lead!!!!

jason.cre wrote:

Its only traditional if you are drilling the bolts (by hand!) yourself on lead!!!!

I agree 

jason.cre wrote:

Its only traditional if you are drilling the bolts (by hand!) yourself on lead!!!!

So if we placed a single bolt ON RAPPEL in the middle of a 100 ft runout prior to leading it, we created a sport route?

Hamish Malin wrote: Tell that to the 120’ route with 7 bolts I just did in j-tree.  But those 30’ whips are super chill on a slab route ;).

7 bolts is definitely sport in Jtree. 

Also, its a bit hot to be climbing Jtree slab right now.

Matt N wrote:

7 bolts is definitely sport in Jtree. 

Also, its a bit hot to be climbing Jtree slab right now.

Fair enough.  For me, “just” means “April”, and it was already pretty damn hot.  FWIW, I would call it sport too, since it required no pro apart from a gear anchor.  But it was pretty sporty sport, at least for me.

Gunkiemike wrote:

So if we placed a single bolt ON RAPPEL in the middle of a 100 ft runout prior to leading it, we created a sport route?

TOTEZ

I also call BS on the drilling on lead assertion.  You should be able to discretize between a sport and trad route just by looking at the route.  If I need to go to the library to identify what it is, it defeats the whole point of the label.

“Any sport routes nearby?  I left all my trad gear in the van” vice “Any good trad routes nearby? I’ve just got a rope and draws, but only climb on bolts that were placed on lead”.  

Which one sounds stupider?

Reminds me of Mickey Mantle on Suicide. 3 bolts for 120ft, drilled on lead, 5.8. When drilled on lead, it usually means it's run out through the cruxes.

I think the issue here is that 'trad' and 'sport' aren't perfect, all-encompassing terms or categories. There's a loose collection of ethical values that, when followed, we call it trad. And there's a concept that climbing should be safe and totally protected, even if that means permanent gear, and we call that sport. But those two ideas don't describe all climbing. There are lots of situations where a route could be both or neither. At one extreme, If I went up a route and place pitons every five feet up a crack, on lead, onsight for the FA, it's probably going to be considered a 'trad' ascent by most people. But now there are fresh pitons every 5 feet! So the next guy who climbed it right away after me is basically climbing a sport route. The route is both 'trad' and 'sport'. At the other extreme, if I modified a drone to place a single bolt halfway up a 100 ft overhung route, with no natural protection, then led it with only that one bolt, absolutely no one would call that trad, but it's also not sport. So yeah, 'R-rated sport' isn't sport... it's an oxymoron. But it's also not trad either (except some people would consider it trad if the bolts were placed by hand, on lead, without TR rehearsal, I suppose).

Connor Johnstone wrote: if I modified a drone to place a single bolt halfway up a 100 ft overhung route...

I want that drone.  It is the next logical step after the bolt gun that Stalone had in Cliffhanger.  BTW, who made that gun?  Was is Bosch?

Trad climbers like to say they are strong mentally vs the physical strength of sport climbers. This argument is just an extension of that, where they try to claim anything that gets spicy. That isn't how the common usage works.
-If the route is protected by bolts but there is a long run out section that doesn't offer any gear placements, it is R rated sport.
-If when people talk about the route and say something like "there are bolts all the way up but bring a .75 and a .5 to protect the run out." then it falls in that fuzzy area. Just leave it at that. No need to twist your head around semantics.
-If a route requires a person with no interest in free soloing to bring a rack up in order to protect a route, it's trad. Even if they clip a bolt or two.

Hamish Malin wrote:If I need to go to the library to identify what it is, it defeats the whole point of the label.

We used to just call it "climbing".

Only in the past couple of decades has there been such an emphasis placed on these discrete labels.

There is nothing inherently traditional about using chocks, pins, or bolts. "Traditional" indicates the approach in which one used to establish a route. Bolts and other fixed "sport" hardware have been in use much longer than many of the "traditional" cams and nuts that have come to define "Trad" in the modern vernacular.

Steven Claggett wrote: Trad climbers like to say they are strong mentally vs the physical strength of sport climbers. This argument is just an extension of that, where they try to claim anything that gets spicy. That isn't how the common usage works.
-If the route is protected by bolts but there is a long run out section that doesn't offer any gear placements, it is R rated sport.
-If when people talk about the route and say something like "there are bolts all the way up but bring a .75 and a .5 to protect the run out." then it falls in that fuzzy area. Just leave it at that. No need to twist your head around semantics.
-If a route requires a person with no interest in free soloing to bring a rack up in order to protect a route, it's trad. Even if they clip a bolt or two.

That fuzzy area I would call “mixed”.   In general, I just wanna know whether to bring my rack or not...