Calling all friction engineers
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Many belay devices these days have "teeth" (some non-smooth area near the brake end of the strand). Do these "teeth" really enhance the braking power or is it just a cosmetic sales gimmick? As far as I remember, frictional forces are independent of surface area, so I can't see how these wavy "teeth" would do anything. Is there maybe some other effect than pure friction involved? |
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Let's take a look at the BD ATC Guide and see. Notice the "V" groove. If I could find a top view, you will see another "V" groove there it is fatter in the back than in the front. The "teeth" give the device the added ability to "bite" onto the rope. A normal ATC with no grooving what so ever has less area of the rope touching the device allowing the rope to pass easier. Does that make any sense to you? Edited for spelling *hangs head in shame* |
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John Wilder wrote: It's not the teeth so much as the 'V' and yes, it helps quite a bit with today's skinny lines. I wouldn't want to try and catch a high factor fall on a 9mm line with a regular atc. I agree that the "V" gives an easier catch, but once the rope has stopped running through the belay device, the rope will expand into the grooves to give a stringer bite. I have not tried it with any rope less than 9.2 mm. doubles and it caught just fine. |
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You might be confusing cooeffecient of friction (which wouldn’t change with friction area), with total friction force, which is dependent on surface area. |
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Jon Rhoderick wrote: You might be confusing cooeffecient of friction (which wouldn’t change with friction area), with total friction force, which is dependent on surface area. Well OP is basing his theory on the ideas of basic Coulomb friction, where Friction Force=coefficient of friction x Normal Force. In which case he's right, friction is independent of surface area. But squeezing a soft rope into a grooved metal slot really doesn't fit any of the assumptions of that model. |
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Here is some reading material: |
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Well the v grooves make a difference of about 20% to the whole effectiveness but really it is because the initial bend in the rope is split into two seperated parts. The intermediate grooves do more or less nothing. |
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^^^ well stop that climbing right now & focus on what's really important, which is ... er, what was that again ... ? |
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Unlke Jim, I'm rehabbing some ankle tendonitis and so am out of the climbing game at the moment. |
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On small race boats there is a common cleat called the clam cleat that is a similar design to the ATC exit except with far more aggressive teeth. It works quite well for holding small diameter lines. I think it's safe to assume that the "V" and teeth combo adds a significant amount of holding power considering the clam cleat holds completely (aka would lock off with zero force on the brake strand). |
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Maybe, and it is plausible that the ATC engineers copied the teeth from clam cleat design. But clam cleats are designed as progress-capture devices that hold ropes statically. They taper in the direction of anticipated load and/or have much more radical v-slots. The effect is to compress the rope and force it into the teeth. You couldn't possibly belay with a clam cleat design, because you wouldn't be able to pay out rope at all. Once you've modifed the design to allow the rope to slip through under load (eg rappelling), the question of whether the "vestigial" teeth still do anything remains. |
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You could definitely belay with a clam cleat, the rope runs freely when the tag end is 90 degrees to the cleat. |
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If you saw me climbing you would think l suffered multiple injuries last week! |
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rgold wrote:Coulomb's law is a very rough first approximation which all "friction engineers" recognize as seriously flawed. It comes closest to being accurate when the resisting mechanism comes from forces at the molecular level, which means between two highly polished surfaces. As soon as the surfaces have physical features, even on microscopic scales, that can interact, Coulomb's law is no longer accurate. This does not deter engineers from designing things, such as the shape of climbing cams, as if Coulomb's law is in effect. Seriously flawed is a strong claim. If we start heading away from friction between surfaces being proportional to their normal force then we would head into some seriously wacky behaviour and the world around us would behave very bizarrely. Engineers continue to design things as if Coulomb's law is in effect because in a vast number of circumstances it is a very good model of the behaviour. In the same way engineers keep designing things as though "Newtonian physics is in effect". Well it is for most purposes of mechanics and civil engineering. Though in other aspects less common aspects of life quantum and relativistic behaviours need to be considered.(I have little doubt that you are well informed here. But using the claim 'seriously flawed' to describe a model that is relied upon in many parts of engineering and science is a little strong.) |
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It is an interesting day when you get called out on MP for a statement that is "a little strong!" In support of your comment, we have |
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Never used Coulombs law in 40 years as an engineer, all my tribology books tell me to determine the coefficient of friction experimentally for the conditions that will be encountered. |
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I would guess that these "teeth" reduce the pressure on the rope itself because the forces are distributed over a larger area (multiple teeth as opposed to one). Maybe they don't add any additional braking friction, but don't we want some slippage during a really hard fall? |
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David Bruneau wrote: I would guess that these "teeth" reduce the pressure on the rope itself because the forces are distributed over a larger area (multiple teeth as opposed to one). Maybe they don't add any additional braking friction, but don't we want some slippage during a really hard fall? The only way to avoid all rope slippage would lead to cut ropes in severe falls, as I understand it. On the other hand, most belays are completely clueless that slippage does occur in bad falls with disastrous results. |
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Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Have you got some accident reports on this? I'd like to see what happened. I guess if slippage starts and the climber has enough momentum, they just keep going.... |
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The reports are out there. |
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rgold wrote: Meanwhile, we have a certain amount of engineering doublethink going on, in which the cam is designed according to the assumptions of Coulomb's law and then, for example, for soft rock, Metolius increases the cam surface area (their Fatcams), even though Coulomb's law says this doesn't matter, and DMM develops a complicated surface treatment that is supposed to "increase friction." It isn't double think if you are dealing with soft surfaces. If you one surface crushing and changing characteristics because of the normal force then that is a different story. Jim Titt wrote:Yep. There are plenty of areas where it may not be particularly helpful. There are also a bunch of areas where it is. It is used in many areas of civil construction. If you could come up with a more accurate model then great. But meanwhile Mohr-Column will continue to be used guide engineering in safe construction. Oh, and what exactly did you mean by "coefficient of friction". Is this a coefficient of the normal force or something else? If it is a coefficient of the normal force then that is exactly what I've said. Also are you talking about kinetic friction? If so I'm not sure the relevance.... You are right tribology is a whole lot different. But that really isn't what we are talking about here, we are talking about static friction. Yep, a rope in a belay device is normally not static. That is why I was very willing to defer to your expertise. :-) |