Can you tell me about this bolt and hanger?

kevin deweese wrote:
:Why do people keep responding to an OP whose every single post on this thread has been dismissive, arrogant, or just plain jerkish?

Hey Kev , Hope Itz  All Good, . . .  Yes   . . . . very succinctly put,
But, as an old un-repentant badazzed azzhole
 let me expand on the idea
a bit:

It is getting so that you cant swing a cat by the tail around here, now, without clocking one these self entitled and self aggrandizing punters in the head..

Given that McGivern is writting a guide book to all the climbs he cares to chronicle,across a few regions, seemingly?

doesn't look like will be sighting sources other than a quote from a MP post?  
&
 is not given to an in depth dive into the history of who the strongest climbers in a given region are/were   -  from all that I can tell?

many of whom are still alive and disgusted with what the indoor school of climbing has wrought,
so
wanting to protect the memories, will have nothing to do with climbing anymore..
 As well as showing
  little to no regard to other players who's ascents came decades before these punks touched a rock outside,

  it seems the better response
 is no response.

It is a two way street,Tut, You need to know who it is and what their agenda is, before engaging.
 The clear attitude that I have not heard Boo and have 40+ years  climbing in the region tells me all I need to know.

Tim the rope? I think I know who's rope it was & between 2-3 people who might have left it. have you measured IT?, as to the bolts ?

iiiiiiiiiiii  eeeeeeeeeee  .  .  
DMs exchanged

`
Now look whatt! !?zitz'ard,T'Bme                  

 THANK YOU FOR THE CLINIC,,,,,,,,,;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                      !!!!!     BUSDRIVER

caps lock fail
IT IS A GIVEN THIS McGIVERN, IS GIVEN TO SETTING THINGS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION,
We as trailblazers get sad at the speed with which the decades pass, for some climbing is a fountain of youth. This adds to
making any  "changing of the guard(s"), without any seeming "pass of the torch, - hard for those concerned about the future  to feel good about.
With Tim, we are talking in terms of the newer levels of steward ship.  These are the rocks in the north east. within minutes of cities, & in small park lands in high density population centers.    
 
ie
IN THIS CASE WE COULDN'T HAVE WISHED FOR MORE.

 ,

Ok ok, calm down everyone.

I wasn’t trying to be a jerk. I was trying to have a fun discussion about a few bolts I found. I thought that homework comment by Hurump was a bit jerky, but heck it was funny to! Dan K had a funny re-write as well!

Michael, indeed I’m writing a small guide for an outdoor comp happening in November (Lynn Woods Boulder Bash). The bolts and rope don’t have much to do with it (besides some history of the area) It is the first big fundraiser for Southeast New England Climbers Coalition (SNECC). I am friends with one of the main developers of the region, up-to-speed on his friends from before my day (which began in 1996), and was lucky enough to climb and put up routes with the late Rich Baker before he passed, may he Rest In Peace. The rope is still at the crag I found it at and will get the info next time I’m there. It’s a bit out there.

Of course I respect climbers of past including the authors of NEB. Again, my only gripe is the title always seemed off to me. Pretty small gripe if you ask me.

I’ve been climbing over 20 years and enjoy talking about climbing. For the past year I’ve been leading the effort to get SNECC started to literally save some fantastic boulders in my local areas from destruction.

A couple folks on here are getting all amped up on basically nothing. Calm down.

If you don’t want to talk about some cool bolts I found in a place that doesn’t usually have bolts, kindly exit stage left. To all who have helped out (including Hurumpt) Thanks!

Now, back to the bolt please? I think it’s solved now anyway.

kevin deweese wrote: Why do people keep responding to an OP whose every single post on this thread has been dismissive, arrogant, or just plain jerkish?

Geez man, lighten up a bit. Harump didn’t realize I was just pulling his chain a bit. I sent him a note to apologize and make he knew I was grateful for his info.

Where has the collective sense of humor gone?  none of this should be this serious folks.

Its hard to not come across as "jerky" without writing something long and tedious trying to be more clear (and you still risk inadvertent offense)....even emojis are a pain.

By posting (in brief) on how by visual inspection (rust/no rust, galvanic action between bolt/hanger/stone) you can make informed inferences as to metal type and bolt type so I was only trying to point you in the right direction, hoping you would pick up the ball and run with it. There are also web pages out there with a google search that describe the markings on the heads and their meanings etc.

Bolts aren't super complicated and it is very worthwhile to take some time to learn the tools of your trade, imo.

Move on, Kyle. Everyone else has.

Warning:  read on for too much info. Admin: Feel free to relocate this Or send it to oblivion for the hijack. 

Below are some identifiers on bolts and hangers.  There are many engineer type folks and bolt warriors in here that can take this conversation beyond this but here’s a start. 

Bolt head (most likely) = 5 piece power-bolt (exclusively carbon steel in the 90s)






NUT head (most likely)= wedge bolt /“stud” anchor.   Placeable with one hand so we hey are a often used when bolting on lead. 

No bolt or nut (most likely) = glue in bolt
Most reputable companies put a letter on the anchor so once it’s set, inspectors can tell how long it is or what specs.  For 3/8” bolts:A=1.5”-2” not suitable for much 
B=2”-2.5” bolt ladders or bullet hard rock 
C=2.5-3” common in hard rock
D=3-3.5” common sport climbing bolt 
E=3.5-4” (standard length drill bit sunk “to the hilt”

Date of placement:
FIXE stamps the date of manufacture on their hangers. Subtract a few years between manufacture and installation to guess what year the bolt was placed. The date is on the side of the hanger opposite the bolt and may be near the rock. 

 
Carbon steel:
If it’s shiny yellowish or (obnoxiously) shiny silver it is a newer carbon steel hanger“25Kn” on FIXE carbon steel hangers 
If it’s got a dull white/grey/light bluish coating over the whole thing like a chain link fence, it’s a midlife carbon steel bolt that the factory zinc coating is reacting and has created a protective layer and is working properly. If it’s brown and rusty, it’s a carbon steel bolt where the protective zinc coating from the factory has all finished reacting and/or  corrosion has set in.  With no flaking, This may just be surface rust and structural integrity may be fine. Brown on bolts and washers and chains common (not optimal) in dry environments. But, It also could be hiding more severe corrosion within. Rust is an indicator that the bolt is not new. 
Stainless steel:less reflective or gun metal” grey.“INOX”, “304”, or “316” stamped somewhere on the hanger304 or 316 stamped on one side of the nut so inspectors can see its stainless once installed. 
Stainless is a softer metal and has more room for human error during installation due to over torquing. And the nuts tend to come loose and require retightening more often. 
over the long haul, stainless bolts should last longer in most climates.
Corrosion is warded offthe longest by not mixing metals between bolt, nut, washer, and hanger. However, In the 90s there were pretty much only carbon steel bolts and primarily stainless Metolius hangers.  And, those are coming up on 20-30 years in service.   

If it’s loose, tighten it!Stainless or carbon steel: Put an short handled 8” wrench in your sport climbing kit to tighten bolts.  Tighten the loose bolt, don’t try to kill it with force. Don’t unscrew it first, just tighten until snug. The parts just need to stay together and engaged with the hole wall. More torque does not equal more strength. If it just spins endlessly when you are tightening it, clip a draw to it and pull outward while tightening.If this doesn’t work a more experienced bolter should be notified. Note: that some hangers may spin even after tightening the bolt. A spinning hanger is not optimal but it does not automatically indicate that the bolt is less solid. Notify a bolter, when the bolt head turns in the hole endlessly without tightening.

Length and girth of the bolt used are (usually) determined by the hardness of the rock.  Fatter and longer bolts hold better in softer rock and shorter ones are suitable for “bulletproof” rock types. Glue ins are good in soft or porous rock because glue hardens into cavities and air holes within the hole. 

?? I have questions concerning rusty washers. I was on a route put up 15 years ago with carbon steel hardware in a dry climate.  Most of the bolts looked like a chain link fence with the light grey and white powdery texture (protective zinc coating reacting).  However a few of them the washer was the only part that was visibly rusty. Is this because the zinc has all reacted and thus started to corrode sooner? Why does it seem to happen randomly to some and not others?If a stainless washer was placed with carbon steel bolt and hanger, would the stainless washer corrode galvanically and create this rust?
For those who’ve pulled old bolts, If only the washer is rusty, how often does that affect the shaft of the bolt?

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Its hard to not come across as "jerky" without writing something long and tedious trying to be more clear (and you still risk inadvertent offense)....even emojis are a pain.

By posting (in brief) on how by visual inspection (rust/no rust, galvanic action between bolt/hanger/stone) you can make informed inferences as to metal type and bolt type so I was only trying to point you in the right direction, hoping you would pick up the ball and run with it. There are also web pages out there with a google search that describe the markings on the heads and their meanings etc.

Bolts aren't super complicated and it is very worthwhile to take some time to learn the tools of your trade, imo.

Yes, I believe I said “thank you”. Should I keep saying it?

Back to “learning the tools of the trade” from people like bus driver, etc.

Thanks for that Bus Driver. So it sounds like the fact there is no washer may be a good thing in this case. I would say the sheen is defiantly a dull grey, so the older zinc playing seems to make sense as well.

Brief summary of findings from pics:
 Fixe zinc plated hanger with quality zinc plated steel 5 piece 3/8” power bolt with no washer, which is probably not a big deal. Should last another decade or so but is susceptible to corrosion more than stainless. 

All dozen or so bolts are all the same in this particular spot. Some had some rust, but overall looked ok. I know there was a push of development near 2006/2007, so I’m going to guess it’s from that period.
Thanks all! I’d say case is closed! Unless you know more!

bus driver wrote: 
?? I have questions concerning rusty washers. I was on a route put up 15 years ago with carbon steel hardware in a dry climate.  Most of the bolts looked like a chain link fence with the light grey and white powdery texture (protective zinc coating reacting).  However a few of them the washer was the only part that was visibly rusty. Is this because the zinc has all reacted and thus started to corrode sooner? Why does it seem to happen randomly to some and not others?If a stainless washer was placed with carbon steel bolt and hanger, would the stainless washer corrode galvanically and create this rust?
For those who’ve pulled old bolts, If only the washer is rusty, how often does that affect the shaft of the bolt?

No, a stainless washer corroding galvanically would not create this rust.  In a galvanic cell between a stainless washer and a plated bolt/hanger, the stainless would be protected even more from corrosion than typically and would look pretty much brand new.  This is actually a fairly common scenario, and my only guess is that the zinc plating on the washer is much thinner than on the bolt or hanger so it reacts more quickly and then rusts.  I also wonder if maybe some un-plated washers have been used for some reason because it does seem strange that the washer would react so much more quickly than the bolt or hanger.

As for the OP, the hanger is very obviously a fixe plated steel hanger (25 kN stamp), and the bolt is most likely a 1/2" x 3.75" or 1/2" x 4" 5-piece.

Just added a few pics to my post above if anyone made it this far and is still interested. 

Tim McGivern wrote: Thanks for that Bus Driver. So it sounds like the fact there is no washer may be a good thing in this case. I would say the sheen is defiantly a dull grey, so the older zinc playing seems to make sense as well.

Brief summary of findings from pics:
 Fixe zinc plated hanger with quality zinc plated steel 5 piece 3/8” power bolt with no washer, which is probably not a big deal. Should last another decade or so but is susceptible to corrosion more than stainless. 

All dozen or so bolts are all the same in this particular spot. Some had some rust, but overall looked ok. I know there was a push of development near 2006/2007, so I’m going to guess it’s from that period.
Thanks all! I’d say case is closed! Unless you know more!

Just as an FYI, I'm like 99.9% sure that the bolt is a 1/2", not 3/8".  You can tell just by looking at the size of the bolt head, to verify, just throw a wrench on it, a 1/2" bolt will require a 9/16" wrench, a 3/8" needs a 1/2" wrench.  Also, it is very typical for a 1/2" bolt to be placed with a 3/8" (10mm) hanger, and when you do this you don't use a washer so that the bolt has more thread engagement with the cone, I've never seen a 3/8" 5-piece bolt used without a washer except on old 5/16" SMC hangers. 

Tim McGivern wrote: Thanks for that Bus Driver. So it sounds like the fact there is no washer may be a good thing in this case. I would say the sheen is defiantly a dull grey, so the older zinc playing seems to make sense as well.

Brief summary of findings from pics:
 Fixe zinc plated hanger with quality zinc plated steel 5 piece 3/8” power bolt with no washer, which is probably not a big deal. Should last another decade or so but is susceptible to corrosion more than stainless. 

Yep that sounds about right. AFAIK The washer/no washer is maybe an issue of personal style of the FA.  Hangers come with different size holes for different bolts. I’ve used no washer on the hanger in places to indicate that it’s a 1/2 bolt on  3/8” hanger. 

Tim McGivern wrote:  I would say the sheen is defiantly a dull grey

No matter how many times that hanger was commanded to be bright silver, its sheen remained defiantly dull grey.

Re: Rust on washers....

1. Washers may or may not have the identical dialectric constant of the bolt materials/hanger and commonly don't so they commonly rust first in a "sacrificial" sense. This is better than the shaft going first unless you come across those manky setups using oversize washers as the hangers for chains. No Bueno.

2. The micro environment of each bolt is impossible to predict. This is very much the problem mixing galvy bolts with SS hangers etc or even cheap-ass galvy washers with SS hangers or chains etc.

Something in the mineral content of the precise location of the bolt and the amount of water it gets plus the possible exposure of the underlying carbon steel (under a coating) due to a scratch etc can greatly accelerate stress corrosion cracking, esp when metals are mixed. Bolts 6" apart and placed at the same time can look very different in a few years.

This is especially true deeper in the hole and out of sight. Galvy bolts that look ok on the outside can be utter shyte on the inside, and bolts that look bad on the outside can actually be quite strong. YMMV™ YGD™. This is why bolters should make every effort to use quality SS hardware, bolt and hanger, to not make any time bombs in the future (though we all have sinned).