New climber that's owning it!

Old lady H wrote:

yes, you are hurt on behalf of a lady who already spoke for herself.

I didn't perceive Lena as being hurt. I certainly wasn't. I was just commenting on a perception of women climbers that I thought had gone out of fashion decades ago. Part cute, part cringeworthy.

wendy weiss wrote:

I didn't perceive Lena as being hurt. I certainly wasn't. I was just commenting on a perception of women climbers that I thought had gone out of fashion decades ago. Part cute, part cringeworthy.

Ah. My apologies all around. 

Best, Helen

Ryan Swanson wrote: Wait- Can we agree there are only two genders?  No one said:

"So. my partner is a bit on the body positivity side, but with gorgeous purple hair, and dark, lots of eye-shadow eyes. Needs sunscreen year round, never slept in a tent ze's entire life... wouldn't expect ze to be outdoorsy... But I took ze climbing to the gym a couple of weeks ago, and ze thought it was hard, but ze was willing to give it a try again. So I took zem shopping, got zem a nice harness with a RESIST logo, a belay device, shoes-- of course ze wanted communist red, but he ended up picking a nice pair of blue ones because they match our political affiliation, with stripes that matched zes chalkbag, nicely accessorized...

We've gone back twice a week since then, and ze is totally killing it! Couldn't do a 5.6 zes first day, then got up a 5.7 two days later, worked zes ass off (I don't look at ze's ass, I must say it's highly objectifying) on 5.8. Next time ze sent it! And is now getting on 5.9 even, and keeps trying, even when it is really hard for zem. Learned to lead belay the other day, and led zes first 5.9 two days later, the same one who couldn't do two days before!"

No, we do not agree that there are only two genders. But people who are in relationships with nonbinary/genderqueer people are generally NOT the type of people who would write something in this manner. 

The gender flip exercise is just a way to see how some people who identify as binary have very asymmetrical expectations for men/women. People who are non binary, or in relationships with non binary, have moved past it and don’t need convincing.  

I know from past conversations that I have no hope of convincing you, or a few others here. 

I was responding to someone whose views on this topic were unknown to me, and who seemed open to consider my point of view. 

wendy weiss wrote:

It was also this : "So we head to REI before our next outing and she selects a harness and a pair of shoes...in tealish blue, her favorite color. So here we are accesorized to perfection going to the gym for the second time." I can't conceive of anyone writing that about a man. 

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say

Old lady H wrote:

Lena, you didn't just switch the genders, and yes, since he said she saw it and it passed, yes, you are hurt on behalf of a lady who already spoke for herself. YMMV, and does, obviously. ;-)

Buy lottery tickets, folks, or expect the sun to nova tonight. Lena and I aren't in total agreement!

Best, Helen

No, I didn’t just switch genders, I used details that were provided by the poster I was responding to, and embellished it to make a point. 

And can you not think of any scenario where you see/hear someone talking to or about another person in a way you find objectionable, and it remains objectionsble even if the person being talked to/about is “fine with it”.

I can think of many such examples.

I object to people yelling at children, for example, even if the kid is completely unfazed by the yelling. 

I would find it objectionable if a guy referred to his partner as a bitch, and then told me that it’s fine, it’s just a pet name he uses for his girlfriend, she is totally cool with that. (And I say it with full understanding that there might be people out there who actually do this, both people who use a slur as a joke, and people who are in some variation of a dom/sub relationship where they actually want to be insulted, humiliated, put down, etc. because it turns them on. Without context, in s public forum, the default is, it’s not cool, because for every woman who wants to be insulted, there are 100s who learned to live with an occasional insult, and not make a fuss.)

In neither of these example I was offended or hurt “on behalf of“ the kid being yelled at, or a woman being called names. Hurt isn’t the right word for it at all. 
In case of the op, my reaction was simply, a woman would have never have written the same post about her boyfriend. 

Hey Lena,
Thank you for bringing this up. I felt vaguely uncomfortable with the original post, and now I know why. I understand your objections, and frankly, it took your letter to raise my awareness.
 That said, the original poster clearly meant no harm, and simply wanted to express to others the joy he and his partner are finding in climbing.
I think we should welcome him and his partner
into the fold, and appreciate being reminded of
joy and enthusiasm many of us experienced
when we were new to climbing.
Thanks again!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenz

Peter Lenz wrote: Hey Lena,
Thank you for bringing this up. I felt vaguely uncomfortable with the original post, and now I know why. I understand your objections, and frankly, it took your letter to raise my awareness.
 That said, the original poster clearly meant no harm, and simply wanted to express to others the joy he and his partner are finding in climbing.
I think we should welcome him and his partner
into the fold, and appreciate being reminded of
joy and enthusiasm many of us experienced
when we were new to climbing.
Thanks again!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenz

I agree with most of what you say here, Peter – absolutely, I'm thrilled to see the stoke of new climbers, and I'm excited to welcome them into the community!

But someone can mean no harm, and still actually do plenty of harm.

So it is still useful that this is being discussed, regardless of his intentions.

Nate Tastic wrote:

Or are you suggesting she should change just to fit into a narrative that isn't, in reality, who this particular person is? It would appear that is the case by your last comment. Feel free to correct me, however. 

And why should Forrest tell his story any other way than how he saw it or wanted to tell it? It's his perspective. He's entitled to it just like you all are entitled to yours. Plus, he's the only one who knows her, why should he lie about her to make her out to be something she's not? And this as to not step on the toes of other people who think she should be different than she actually is?

Also, I'd like to point out that perceptions aren't always what they appear to be and can cross the line and more represent opinions. And therefore totally open to debate; and here we are.

Lastly, and this is only an opinion, my 2 centavos:

Some of you have become hammers and see all the things as nails. I do, however, understand how that may have transpired (or at least I can make an educated guess based on what I know of history and more) and am familiar with the historical context of what may have gotten us to that point but, consider choosing your battles more wisely. Lots of real fights out there, this wasn't one of them.

Again, it's just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.

Not hurt. Not upset. Didn't think it was a battle. And of course Forrest is entitled to his perspective and his narrative; I wasn't suggesting that he should lie about his GF. Nor was I suggesting that she should be any different than she actually is. She's her own person apart from his perspective and can probably be described honestly in many ways. I was simply struck by a narrative that, IMO, harkened back to some old, condescending stereotypes about women. 

Note: Nate, I don't know why the first part of your quote disappears from my response. That's MP, not me.     

I just can't get over the idea that she couldn't figure out how to use a GriGri...

is this the bernie sanders rally or wat

Greg Redlawsk wrote: I just can't get over the idea that she couldn't figure out how to use a GriGri...

Probably way too intuitive ... to use a Grigri properly you have to strip the gear in your head that has you instinctively grabbing the rope to stop a fall ...

Actually it was the lever that she didn't get along with so much. To be honest I had several lightbulbs illuminated for me on optimal use of a Grigri by a gym employee who was really nice and kind to us in showing us how to best make use of the thing for lead belaying. Now I'm certain one or many of you are going to run some place with that statement. I'm happy to help you exercise!

Outside is in the works. We're skill building and strengthening while making contacts and friends. When she's comfortable with going outside to climb, we'll go with someone WHOM she's comfortable with.

Well I certainly did not forsee the amazing analysis a simple post would receive. Folks want to worry about what I said and how I said it. I'm convinced that some might even go so far as to tell me or her how to feel about it. That's crossing a line there. You don't have a right to try and correct my manner of speaking to conform to your sociopolitical agenda. It's about climbing, where people put all of that aside to address the simple problem of how to get up. A group of folks are all united in this one common goal without regard to anything else complicating it. I haven't got time for figuring out what pronoun or which tone is going to be most acceptable. I'm proud of my now fiancée's accomplishments and I won't be able to come back down from this cloud to accommodate killjoys who have been miffed. I neither want nor need to be educated or given a second chance unless you're talking about gear, beta, or a pitch. Onward and upward. Climbing? Cimb on!

Forrest Halley wrote: Well I certainly did not forsee the amazing analysis a simple post would receive. 

lol, 5 pages of nitpicking femtoaggressions later, congrats to her on the 5.8.

I agree with Lena, if a female had written what the OP wrote, but about a boyfriend, she would be greeted with 15 pages of propositions to her and denigrations to her guy.

Peter Lenz wrote: Hey Lena,
Thank you for bringing this up. I felt vaguely uncomfortable with the original post, and now I know why. I understand your objections, and frankly, it took your letter to raise my awareness.
 That said, the original poster clearly meant no harm, and simply wanted to express to others the joy he and his partner are finding in climbing.
I think we should welcome him and his partner
into the fold, and appreciate being reminded of
joy and enthusiasm many of us experienced
when we were new to climbing.
Thanks again!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenz

I'm glad you got what i was trying to say.

As to why would i bring this up in a post by a guy who mostly sounded like he was just psyched for the progress his girlfriend was making? I brought it precisely BECAUSE the guy mostly sounded like he was psyched about his girlfriend's progress, with couple off-putting sentences in the mix.

I don't know this guy. And I was willing to assume that this is something he has done without much thinking about how these kinds of remarks might be perceived, rather than doing it intentionally, because he feels superior to his girlfriend specifically, or to women in general. It might just be the way he is used to thinking/talking, just because it is common, and he doesn't mean anything bad by it.

In that case, pointing out a thing like that MAY  (just may) get a person to think, "huh, I didn't realize how it comes across, do I really talk about my girlfriend in a patronizing way?"  

I have learned that some of the things I used to say were not as harmless/random as I used to think, and I choose not to do it. I think other people might also.

Forrest Halley wrote: Actually it was the lever that she didn't get along with so much. To be honest I had several lightbulbs illuminated for me on optimal use of a Grigri by a gym employee who was really nice and kind to us in showing us how to best make use of the thing for lead belaying. Now I'm certain one or many of you are going to run some place with that statement. I'm happy to help you exercise!

Outside is in the works. We're skill building and strengthening while making contacts and friends. When she's comfortable with going outside to climb, we'll go with someone who she's comfortable with.

Well I certainly did not forsee the amazing analysis a simple post would receive. Folks want to worry about what I said and how I said it. I'm convinced that some might even go so far as to tell me or her how to feel about it. That's crossing a line there. You don't have a right to try and correct my manner of speaking to conform to your sociopolitical agenda. It's about climbing, where people put all of that aside to address the simple problem of how to get up. A group of folks are all united in this one common goal without regard to anything else complicating it. I haven't got time for figuring out what pronoun or which tone is going to be most acceptable. I'm proud of my now fiancée's accomplishments and I won't be able to come back down from this cloud to accommodate killjoys who have been miffed. I neither want nor need to be educated or given a second chance unless you're talking about gear, beta, or a pitch. Onward and upward. Climbing? Cimb on!

Well said, Forrest! Stay stoked!

Forrest Halley wrote: Actually it was the lever that she didn't get along with so much. To be honest I had several lightbulbs illuminated for me on optimal use of a Grigri by a gym employee who was really nice and kind to us in showing us how to best make use of the thing for lead belaying. Now I'm certain one or many of you are going to run some place with that statement. I'm happy to help you exercise!

Outside is in the works. We're skill building and strengthening while making contacts and friends. When she's comfortable with going outside to climb, we'll go with someone WHOM she's comfortable with.

Well I certainly did not forsee the amazing analysis a simple post would receive. Folks want to worry about what I said and how I said it. I'm convinced that some might even go so far as to tell me or her how to feel about it. That's crossing a line there. You don't have a right to try and correct my manner of speaking to conform to your sociopolitical agenda. It's about climbing, where people put all of that aside to address the simple problem of how to get up. A group of folks are all united in this one common goal without regard to anything else complicating it. I haven't got time for figuring out what pronoun or which tone is going to be most acceptable. I'm proud of my now fiancée's accomplishments and I won't be able to come back down from this cloud to accommodate killjoys who have been miffed. I neither want nor need to be educated or given a second chance unless you're talking about gear, beta, or a pitch. Onward and upward. Climbing? Cimb on!

Hear! hear! Enjoy yourselves and don't let the negative people bring you down. Haters gonna hate.

Forrest Halley wrote: Actually it was the lever that she didn't get along with so much. To be honest I had several lightbulbs illuminated for me on optimal use of a Grigri by a gym employee who was really nice and kind to us in showing us how to best make use of the thing for lead belaying. Now I'm certain one or many of you are going to run some place with that statement. I'm happy to help you exercise!

Outside is in the works. We're skill building and strengthening while making contacts and friends. When she's comfortable with going outside to climb, we'll go with someone WHOM she's comfortable with.

Well I certainly did not forsee the amazing analysis a simple post would receive. Folks want to worry about what I said and how I said it. I'm convinced that some might even go so far as to tell me or her how to feel about it. That's crossing a line there. You don't have a right to try and correct my manner of speaking to conform to your sociopolitical agenda. It's about climbing, where people put all of that aside to address the simple problem of how to get up. A group of folks are all united in this one common goal without regard to anything else complicating it. I haven't got time for figuring out what pronoun or which tone is going to be most acceptable. I'm proud of my now fiancée's accomplishments and I won't be able to come back down from this cloud to accommodate killjoys who have been miffed. I neither want nor need to be educated or given a second chance unless you're talking about gear, beta, or a pitch. Onward and upward. Climbing? Cimb on!

Well spoken, sir. And, congratulations! Wishing many happy years of full partnership to you both. You are clearly kind, thoughtful, patient, and stoked for your partner, a good beginning, in my book. Not one of us has disputed that in the least!

Best, Helen

This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Forrest Halley wroteFolks want to worry about what I said and how I said it. I'm convinced that some might even go so far as to tell me or her how to feel about it. That's crossing a line there. You don't have a right to try and correct my manner of speaking to conform to your sociopolitical agenda. 

Actually, we do. It's called freedom of speech. You're welcome to ignore it but we live in a country that allows us to express our opinions.

That same right allows you to post a weird, deprecating dating website style description of your girlfriend on an internet forum to start a climbing story.

Maybe that's just your weird sense of humor and your girlfriend finds it entertaining when you make fun of her to other people. Cool. I find it odd that your story provided more information about your girlfriend than I find about women I message on dating sites.

At least now if things don't work out she has a great self-deprecating dating profile; "Blonde, blue eyed woman of a medium build seeks climbing buddy.  Really pale and bugs love me but I'll risk the dangers of gym plastic and belay while looking stylish."

A+.