Tie in knots

Brian wrote:

I agree with everyone who makes the case that a properly tied knot will work fine. I've said that.  It does seem that whenever someone improperly ties a tie-in knot it is a bowline.  Hill and Long are examples.  I Googled accidents with Figure 8s using the search "mis tied figure 8 knot accident" and can't find anything except references to bowlines. 

Well shit damn. Since one person did one search with one phrase, of the googles, well then, it’s a fact.  We can rest.  

David Kerkeslager wrote: EDIT: Toned down the sarcasm a bit.

Gee, I wanna see the original. I'll make popcorn.

rgold wrote: 1. It is impossible to tie the basic bowline incorrectly in a way that leads to a dangerous situation.  There are sixteen ways to execute the "rabbit comes out of the hole goes around the bush, and goes back in the hole" instruction. (Two ways to form the hole) X (two ways to pass the end through the hole) X (two possible bushes to encircle) X ( two ways to encircle the bush).  You either get a standard bowline, or one of four other outcomes:  (a) no knot ever forms, (b) you tie a cowboy bowline, or, somewhat implausibly,  (c) you tie a left or right-handed Eskimo bowline.  The cowboy and Eskimo bowlines  are arguably better than the usual bowline when it comes to resistance to untying and ring-loading.  In no case does something dangerous result, so the idea that incorrectly tying a bowline might lead to a configuration that fails when loaded is without merit.

I'm Sorta hesitant to keep stoking the fire here but I thought this was pretty interesting so started playing with a cord and I found that if you accidentally go the same way through the hole (up through the hole, around the tree and back up through the hole again) you do end up with some kind of knot that isn't a bowline.

ViperScale . wrote:

I normally just tie the rope around my ankle with an overhand so I can belay my second at the anchor or setup a top rope.

Exactly, use a cat knot around both feet and lose that silly harness.

Jim Titt wrote:

Why don´t you either actually read what was written or study bowlines more? The permutations of tying a bowline either give a variation (most of which are better and none more likely to fail) OR no knot at all. As far as is known there is no way of tying an "unsafe" bowline.

I use bowlines.  But go ahead and miss the intent to cling to your knot.  I do not begeudge them. They are a good knot, just easier to screw up as has been sufficient pointed out.

Vaughn wrote:

I'm Sorta hesitant to keep stoking the fire here but I thought this was pretty interesting so started playing with a cord and I found that if you accidentally go the same way through the hole (up through the hole, around the tree and back up through the hole again) you do end up with some kind of knot that isn't a bowline.

Yeah, i didn't count that because it is contrary to the tying instructions.  The rabbit doesn't come out of the hole twice.  But I suppose if someone is determined enough to eff up, they can manage to do it, but of course exactly the same thing is true of a figure eight if you are going to suspend tying instructions and go freestyle.

Pete Spri wrote:

I use bowlines.  But go ahead and miss the intent to cling to your knot.  I do not begeudge them. They are a good knot, just easier to screw up as has been sufficient pointed out.

If you think I pointed this out, then you have misread my post.

Your post shows exactly why the bowline is more complicated.  Just look at the lengths you have gone to explain it

I get that you and others like the bowline more, that fine.  It is a great knot and works fine for climbing.

But it is far less fool proof than the eight..  Even you pointed out the danger without a backup knot, the lack of ability to inspect easily (which you don't care about).

To help Brian out a bit, here are some articles listing several instances of bowlines coming untied.  Lynne Hill's situation is included, so we don't know how many of the incidents were due to not tying a knot at all.  In the first one mentioned, a bowline was tied, but we don't know about the presence of a finishing knot.  http://rockandice.com/climbing-news/tnb-when-your-rope-falls-off-and-5-ways-to-prevent-the-nightmare .

http://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/bowline-comes-untied-climber-falls-to-ground/

From Abram Herman: "I have a coworker who fell at a Denver gym after her half-tied figure eight failed when she went to lower from the top of a climb."

I've seen two more accounts of figure 8's failing on reddit but can't find them now.  As far as cursory sampling the media goes, I'm finding both types of failures but more bowlines.  The confusion between inattention causing knots to be incomplete or not even begun and knots "untying" is pervasive.

As I said earlier, a bowline that isn't equipped with a finishing knot isn't a climbing knot, and if you are going to check something it should be whether there is some kind of stopper knot installed.  Leaving a bowline (or a double bowline) tied loosely with no stopper knot is indeed a recipe for death.

I do think I'm obliged to recalibrate some of my comments, because of the situation of a loose unsecured bowline coming untied.  Tying such a knot is a kind of inattention, but doesn't seem to be quite the same as inattention causing no knot to be tied at all, and this makes Greg's challenge about bowlines being easier to eff up more substantial, even though I'd prefer to say an unsecured knot hasn't been finished.  There is no equivalent error with a figure 8; you can tie it pretty loosely and stopper knots aren't required anyway and the knot still won't untie.

The bowline is simple to tie.  Saying a figure eight is less complicated than a bowline is like saying checkers is less complicated than chinese checkers.

After reading comments on this thread about bowlines untying themselves, I found videos showing a loosely tied bowline being shaken apart by essentially pushing short tail back through a very loose knot.   

If the plan is to leave your knot loose with no tail, the knot you choose does not matter; you are soloing free and the walk off is your only way down. 

rgold wrote: To help Brian out a bit, here are some articles listing several instances of bowlines coming untied.  Lynne Hill's situation is included, so we don't know how many of the incidents were due to not tying a knot at all.  In the first one mentioned, a bowline was tied, but we don't know about the presence of a finishing knot.  http://rockandice.com/climbing-news/tnb-when-your-rope-falls-off-and-5-ways-to-prevent-the-nightmare .

http://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/bowline-comes-untied-climber-falls-to-ground/

From Abram Herman: "I have a coworker who fell at a Denver gym after her half-tied figure eight failed when she went to lower from the top of a climb."

I've seen two more accounts of figure 8's failing on reddit but can't find them now.  As far as cursory sampling the media goes, I'm finding both types of failures but more bowlines.  The confusion between inattention causing knots to be incomplete or not even begun and knots "untying" is pervasive.

As I said earlier, a bowline that isn't equipped with a finishing knot isn't a climbing knot, and if you are going to check something it should be whether there is some kind of stopper knot installed.  Leaving a bowline (or a double bowline) tied loosely with no stopper knot is indeed a recipe for death.

I do think I'm obliged to recalibrate some of my comments, because of the situation of a loose unsecured bowline coming untied.  Tying such a knot is a kind of inattention, but doesn't seem to be quite the same as inattention causing no knot to be tied at all, and this makes Greg's challenge about bowlines being easier to eff up more substantial, even though I'd prefer to say an unsecured knot hasn't been finished.  There is no equivalent error with a figure 8; you can tie it pretty loosely and stopper knots aren't required anyway and the knot still won't untie..

You have been simply cherry picking.  Saying that failing to tie the back up on a bowline or not following the right sequence doesn't count as a knot is missing the point.

If you are attempting a bowline yet fail to tie a back up, or the some other part of it wrong, that is a failure of tying the knot appropriately.

I get that you want to not include those errors because they are common mistakes, but that is not how it works.  Those are real world errors that happen with the bowline when tying them in the real world.  They happen in the real world and people don't get an out of jail free card when they do.  You don't get to call them non issues for people who choose to tie the bowline (or attempt to).

Pete, once again you don't seem to understand what I wrote.

You keep repeating "a bowline without a finishing knot isn't a climbing knot" or similar in at least three different places in this thread including the quoted post.  You say you are amending your comments yet continue with the same rhetoric in this post.

I think you have successfully proven that a bowline is a more complicated knot that is easier to screw up , regardless of how many times you claim in this thread that they aren't bowlines that  count as knots.

You are simply backpedaling now.  Still doesn't change the fact that you have a bunch  of posts on this thread that newbies will read assuming no significant difference in tying in with a bowline. 

​I tie in with a double bowline with fisherman's backup. It's as easy to identify/check as the figure 8 but fewer people recognize it, probably because the figure 8 is always taught at gyms. Both knots are safe, relatively easy to tie and untie, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Peter T wrote: I tie in with a double bowline with fisherman's backup. It's as easy to identify/check as the figure 8 but fewer people recognize it, probably because the figure 8 is always taught at gyms. Both knots are safe, relatively easy to tie and untie, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Just wait till you are my age and have arthritis! Bowline is much easier to untie after loading. I have been using it lately and still check and double check if I am doing it right. I only started climbing in 2015 and I remember that confident Figure 8 learning curve was not nearly as steep. Bowline is undoubtedly a more complicated knot. Experienced bowline users may no longer be “challenged” by its higher complexity and thus arguing here that it’s as easy to tie as figure 8.

You may be right normajean.  At this point, I've said all I'm gonna say on the subject for a bit.

I have never heard of a  figure eight coming untied and killing someone. The same can certainly not be said for the bowline. 

normajean wrote:

Just wait till you are my age and have arthritis! Bowline is much easier to untie after loading. I have been using it lately and still check and double check if I am doing it right. I only started climbing in 2015 and I remember that confident Figure 8 learning curve was not nearly as steep. Bowline is undoubtedly a more complicated knot. Experienced bowline users may no longer be “challenged” by its higher complexity and thus arguing here that it’s as easy to tie as figure 8.

Maybe that double checking isn't a bad thing though...

I think being competent and being overly confident is a dangerous line to cross. I'm guilty of it, I don't double check my knots sometimes. Why would I? I've worked as a climbing instructor, in a gym, and I've been climbing for years. I've probably tied in with a figure 8 a few hundred times. But it's possible I make a mistake or I get distracted.

I think taking a step back is a good thing.

Brian wrote:

Would you concede that it is an easier knot to screw up than a Figure 8 especially for all but experienced climbers?

The only reason that a Figure 8 is easier to check is that most beginners are taught a Figure 8 and have never seen a bowline.  If you taught a beginner to tie a bowline and he had never seen a Figure 8, the bowline would be the easier knot to tie and check.  It is not the knot that is easier or more difficult, it is the general aceptance of the knot that makes it more universal.

climbing friend,

why do we all not utilize the competition/brotherhood knot. I for one would like people to think on how I am special for not utilizing most common and safe figure of 8. This knot it also has name it is much cooler. "Brotherhood" ho ho ho ha ha! myah!

all your shitty knot are belong to me

all your flash are belong to me