Multipitch personal anchor question

eli poss wrote:

My tether is a length of 8.5ish mm half rope with a kong slyde tied with a figure 8 to my harness and an alpine butterfly between the fig 8 and the slyde. I clip the locker on the slyde to one bolt and clip a quickdraw from the other bolt to the alpine butterfly. In the absence of such a knot in the middle of the tether, I would probably clip a draw from the other bolt to either somewhere else on the tether or the tether biner.

If you tether is stack, I would reccomend to do the best you can to limit extension onto that quickdraw should the first bolt, but as mentioned before this should be the secondary line of defense. The primary line of defense is testing the rap anchor as much as you can while still on the previous rappel until you feel confident enough in the quality of the next rap anchor.

When I'm getting ready to rap this is the one time there's no redundancy for me.  I've used a PAS22, a sling or a quick draw.  I've just bought a Petzl Connect Adjust but not had a chance to use it yet.  I've seen them in operation and they are way cool...

Carl Schneider wrote:

When I'm getting ready to rap this is the one time there's no redundancy for me.

When redundancy is as easy a clipping a quickdraw to a bolt, why not? I'm not a fan of the endless pursuit of redundancy through all sorts of impracticality, but this is one case where it is practical, easy, and quick. I really don't see a reason why not to. Bolts can and do fail, even bolts that are seemingly good enough. 

eli poss wrote:

When redundancy is as easy a clipping a quickdraw to a bolt, why not? I'm not a fan of the endless pursuit of redundancy through all sorts of impracticality, but this is one case where it is practical, easy, and quick. I really don't see a reason why not to. Bolts can and do fail, even bolts that are seemingly good enough. 

You're 100% right of course.  I love these sorts of discussions as we 'live and learn' as they say.  Sometimes my regular climbing partner says I over think things; I'm a very detailed critical thinker (I'm almost autistic/OCD actually; got a score of 38 on the Asperger's test   ) but it means I DO take the time to develop my skills and knowledge by (over)doing research.  I'll probably change my processes based on these simple hints and tips I get from places like this...

Owen Silitch wrote: 
Lastly, I just wanted to add that you should really try to keep your communication with your belayer again... as simple as possible. My partners and I have started using bird calls (laugh but this sound is funnily enough the most discernible noise when it is windy and it would otherwise be hard to communicate with your partner). One call from the leader = they're off belay, one call from the follower = they have taken the leader off belay, two calls from the leader = the follower is on belay, and two calls from the follower = they are climbing, lastly three calls from the follower = they have started to simul climb. Whatever your system is just try and keep it simple because avoiding excess talking especially when you cannot see or hear your partner that well is the safest way to avoid any miscommunication which can often times have dire consequences.

Oh and as always... YERR GONNA DIE!  

Wait, but what if a bird tells your partner that you're off belay before you're safe?

I use the petzle connect  for  cragging and multi pitch ice etc where I often lead in blocks  and its handy for rapells. anything with a monster approach and I use a different light weight harness and just whatever slings I have with me and the rope.

 If its windy/ no communication,  when all the rope is gone and it keeps pulling  on you hard you are either on belay or simo climbing... 

ViperScale . wrote:

Guide mode it is simple to do that but if you are doing a redirect and belaying from yourself most people I know don't do it because it is anonying trying to get rope through it after you clip it to your harness! Not saying you can't or you shouldn't but lets face it most people rappeling or hooking up someone on belay from an atc just doesn't do it that way. That and you still have to open the biner to get the rope in and expose the atc to getting pulled out.

If you are 100% worried about dropping it you can always tie a knot to the anchor biner and than put them on belay and than untie the knot.

It's less annoying than dropping your belay/rappel device.

Owen Silitch wrote: When it comes to climbing bigger objectives, efficiency is the name of the game... so keep things simple!  

Simplicity and efficiency are not the same thing.  Simplicity has to do with carrying a minimum of gear.  Efficiency has to to with moving as quickly as possible.  Extra items can decrease simplicity while increasing efficiency.  Consider, for example, the difference between ascending a rope with jumars vs. prusic knots.

I don't understand why people use anything other than a locker with a clove hitch for personal anchors: it's fast, safe, and the system (i.e. the rope) is dynamic which makes it the best and quickest way to anchor yourself in at a belay. 

I never use an installed tether as the actual belay anchor (or at least I never did until I got the Petzl connect).  I gave some explanations about usage that were reposted to this thread.   As mentioned in those explanations, the original ideas go back to Mark Twight in his book Extreme Alpinism, so you could look there too.

First of all unless you are climbing with a PAS device like the Petzl Connect Adjust, you are basically just using a dyneema or nylon sling to connect into the anchor which as has been shown by the infamous DMM video can easily fail under surprisingly low forces. The only real advantage that I see to bringing my Chain Reactor on a multi-pitch climb is that it is nice to have for a rappel extension on the way down... that being said if I do decide to bring a PAS on a climb it stays at the bottom of the pack until we get to the top.

For proper alpine climbing (i.e. Patagonia, Alaska, the Alps) I will never bring a PAS with me.

Of course this is precisely the context in which Twight suggested using an installed tether to maximize party efficiency.  And I find there are actually more occasions to use an installed tether in alpine climbing and back-country rock climbing than in cragging.  For example, the party might be moving unroped and reach a point where a transition to roped climbing is required.  You can't clip in with a locker and clove hitch when you aren't roped up yet, and I've watched with  amusement as my "keep it simple" partners struggle to free up a sling pinned down by their pack or the rope carried backpack style or other gear, while I'm already clipped in with my tether and working to get things reading for roped climbing. I've watched the same fumbling when the party is climbing unroped to a rappel point.  I'm clipped in any getting the ropes ready while my "keep it simple" partners are trying to free up a sling (which sometimes turns out to be too short or too long).  Or suppose you are moving with some of the rope coiled over your shoulder and you want to transition to the use of the full rope.  Being clipped in with the rope is only useful if you haven't removed the coils, but the point is to remove the coils, so a tether is once again fast, simple, and efficient, keeps you protected, and doesn't have to be redone.  Another example is that the party may not have planned on aiding anything, but then ice, wet rock, or stormy weather forces some improvised aiding.  Non-adjustable tethers makes that process slower and more strenuous for both leader and second (the Petzl Connect is fantastic for improvised aiding, by the way).  The improvised aid example is a special case of the following general consideration: unexpected things can happen in the mountains in which being able to quickly anchor might be critical.  Having the tether gives you an edge.

Of course it, like a host of things most climbers carry, an installed tether isn't necessary---I hope we're done with that nonsensical objection.  The weight is negligible from any realistic perspective.  It is an extra encumbrance on the harness, and as far as I can tell, this is the only argument against having an installed tether that actually has some content.  

rgold wrote: Of course it, like a host of things most climbers carry, an installed tether isn't necessary---I hope we're done with that nonsensical objection.  The weight is negligible from any realistic perspective.  It is an extra encumbrance on the harness, and as far as I can tell, this is the only argument against having an installed tether that actually has some content.  

Except it really isn't. Fuck the haters and wear it thong style and you won't notice it's there until you need to use it. The adjustable ones, like the connect adjust or the kong slye are even better in this regard because you can fine tune the length so that you don't have a slack thong loop to potentially get caught on stuff. If you can get it within a certain range of length, wearing it thong style is perfect.

eli poss wrote:

Fuck the haters and wear it thong style... 

Yeah, I use a PAS, but that is definitely never going to happen.

How do you wear it, then?

The pic above was just after re-taping, but the tape wasn't 'dressed' yet to allow the biner to still rotate on the PAS, dressed detail below:


PS the final wrap of tape has Gorilla glue on it so it doesn't come unraveled.

the petzle connect is the bomb but when I switch to the ultra light harness, mini biners and alpine runners the connect weighs more than my harness.... In that case I make certain I have a sling with biners ready to rock

Owen Silitch wrot

First of all unless you are climbing with a PAS device like the Petzl Connect Adjust, you are basically just using a dyneema or nylon sling to connect into the anchor which as has been shown by the infamous DMM video can easily fail under surprisingly low forces. The only real advantage that I see to bringing my Chain Reactor on a multi-pitch climb is that it is nice to have for a rappel extension on the way down... that being said if I do decide to bring a PAS on a climb it stays at the bottom of the pack until we get to the top.

RGOLD, myself and several other, experienced individuals have all addressed our feelings on the tether. I’m done debating this I think.I just want to note that the DMM video is infamous to many of us because it grossly over states the risks of static falls. Many use that series as a point but the sky is not falling. Other tests have shown that, unlike a steel weight, a human in a harness creates significantly LESS force in a static fall. I’m with Healy that of the things I worry about killing me on a climb, static falls on my tether is pretty much the bottom of my list. 

To add to Mattm's remark, if you use a Sterling Chain Reactor, which is made of nylon rather than dyneema, the thing will take three factor-2 falls with steel weights, and so the (mostly non-) issue of the tether actually breaking is eliminated.

I've never heard of a tether breaking in the real world.  The incident in Europe sometimes mentioned involved a tethered fall onto in-situ webbing, and it was the webbing, whose integrity no one knows much about, that broke.

PAS slings can be used for very short connections, and there is a possible worry about subjecting any very short connection to a factor-2 fall, as even with nylon there is a chance of breaking carabiners!  The reason is that, first of all, nylon webbing is not as dynamic as climbing rope, but mostly because in very short falls, the carabiner lengths contribute significantly to the fall length but provide virtually no energy absorbtion.  The classic example is a quickdraw whose nylon portion is, say, two carabiner-lengths.  What you might think a factor-2 fall on this is really a factor-4 fall, because the fall is H=8 carabiner lengths but has to be absorbed by L=2 carabiner-lengths of nylon, giving H/L=4.  The resulting tension can and---has at least once---broken carabiners.

 

Don't forget if you hang at any point on a multipitch even on an anchor you failed.

I have zero concerns about leashes in general as, again it’s way down the list of shit that’s going to maim or kill you.

Lots of good info on this article