Banshee belay w/ only rope?
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I've been pouring over multipitchclimbing.com and thinking about the banshee belay. I like the prospect of not getting slammed into the wall if my leader falls, and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks) this seems like a good option. |
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Think about the repercussion of that bolt, carabiner or rope, failing. The belayer should be secured independently or in addition to, so as to act as an additional backup in the system. As for the carabiner on carabiner action, there are extreme load issues(If you accidentally had a bunch of slack and the climber fell) that can shock load the two, as there is no dynamic aspect and for this reason, I like the belay device clipped to the belayers harness and then up to the belay anchor. However, that is pretty extreme and quite unlikely that the carabiner would fail, unless you are in a movie, then it would probably explode .....anyway, I hope some of this is helpful. Have fun and be safe out there. |
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I´m just curious how you can write "If you accidentally had a bunch of slack and the climber fell that can shock load the two, as there is no dynamic aspect...." without working out the logic failure before clicking on `post´. |
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Andrew Hess wrote: and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks) I think you're in for a surprise |
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Fitz: you seem to be critiquing the banshee set up per se. My question is about the feasibility of using just the climbing rope for the banshee, by using a BoB. |
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There are an unfortunate number of bolts in the Gunks, but not they are still far from ubiquitous, and none were placed with the thought of facilitating leader belays. That said, the European methods clip the belay device carabiner to an anchor point carabiner all the time. |
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Standplatz ! |
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Andrew Hess wrote: Andrew, unless something has drastically changed, they are rappel stations. Not really placed for belaying and often not even on a route. In fact, I believe they tried to deliberately place them not on routes to avoid congestion between belayers and rappellers. The Gunks Climbers Coalition would have more information. |
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rgold wrote:There doesn't seem to be any good way of implementing such belays with half ropes---two carabiners, each with its own munter hitch, are not ideal for handling.Based off this document from the DAV, they recommend using a redirected brake strand when using half ropes. Don't have experience with this, but it looks like it would work well to me. Thoughts? http://www.dav-schweinfurt.de/gruppen-2/kg-aastartseite/standplatzbau-juli-2012/ |
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Jeremy, those my guess is they were thinking of twin rope usage in that photo. Handling half ropes with the brake strand redirected that way is awful. It is actually pretty bad managing a single rope that way---just try pumping slack for a clip without locking up the device. |
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Re: DAV photo - my understanding is that this set up is to protect against a FF2. After the leader clips the first piece of pro, the belayer can remove the redirected rope(s) as a fall after the first piece being clipped will orient the belay device to a convential usage. The problem of feeding rope is only an issue till you get the first piece clipped. |
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True, but you can sometimes get FF2 because a piece has pulled. |
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Of course. You are right; the first piece could be less than ideal. |
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OP: that seems to make sense to me, with an appropriate anchor. Rgold, I've belayed a follower on doubles with a munter/Italian on one biner and it worked fine. What are the issues with belaying a leader? |
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For bowline-on-a-bight vs biner-on-biner, I suspect the authors of the diagram simply don't see biner-on-biner as a problem (and, as Andrew points out, the bowline is harder to adjust). As I understand, biner-on-biner is problematic only in very specific circumstances (lead protection quickdraws). |
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Andrew Hess wrote: I've been pouring over multipitchclimbing.com and thinking about the banshee belay. I like the prospect of not getting slammed into the wall if my leader falls, and for the Gunks (which seems to have a lot of bolted belays--still learning about the Gunks) this seems like a good option. Just a heads up. Rigging a belay device in guide mode (as is done in these pictures) is only suitable for belaying a follower from above. As far as I know you won't be able to break a lead fall belaying like this. |
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Andrew, right. I'm thinking that if I used the setup I would either belay with a munter hitch or a redirected belay off my harness. although I think you could also belay the follower in guide mode, then clip into your harness once she heads off in lead. |
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SThal wrote: OP: that seems to make sense to me, with an appropriate anchor. Rgold, I've belayed a follower on doubles with a munter/Italian on one biner and it worked fine. What are the issues with belaying a leader? One is that paying out one rope while taking in the other is awkward, but this could be a matter of very little practice. Another is some concern about the strands rubbing together under loads. |
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Andrew Hess wrote: My main concern is really just about the difference between creating a banshee style anchor with just the climbing rope or using a sling and clipping into it. yes you can do this no problem. I would suggest using an alpine butteryfly to create the fixed point instead of a BoB because it will be easier to adjust if needed. Then just clove to the second bolt. |
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rgold wrote:With our current understanding of test loads, I'd say that for trad climbing, leader belays off an unquestionably bombproof anchor are appropriate and sometimes ideal if a munter hitch is employed. There doesn't seem to be any good way of implementing such belays with half ropes---two carabiners, each with its own munter hitch, are not ideal for handling. Were you referring to lead belaying? You can belay a leader using a single munter with twin rope technique. |
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stolo wrote: Are you referring to twin rope technique? How do you pay out or take in just one rope if using a single Munter and double ropes? |