Stuff you don't NEED, learn from our mistakes

Nick Drake wrote:

If you want a large sample size go to any meeting of the mountaineers, boe-alps, WAC, Mazamas, etc... Outside of your little bubble there are actually a lot of people in the world who care about more than cragging single pitch routes. 

He also says he has a propensity for losing headlamps, so he's making his blanket recommendation on a data point of one.

Roy Suggett wrote:

I have different thoughts on this. I have seen in the last ten years or so a LOT of beginners starting out with a shiny rack of double set of cams and single set of nuts. After two years, they have a rack of "experienced" double set of cams and a still very shiny set of nuts. With zero relevant experience in placing nuts. Starting out with less gear than you "need" will force beginners into practicing creative solutions. IMO this is a lot safer when being on easy "beginner terrain" than after two (or four) years they want to start pushing the grades into 5.10 or higher. Yes, I know that there are areas where climbing with only cams works fine, but there are also places where solid nut skills are absolutely required, especially in "non beginner grades" (5.10 and up). Many beginners seem to be suspicious about passive gear and are very trusting in cams that do not come out no matter how they yank on them. When placing only cams, many develop a "plug-and-go" attitude where fine tuning a placement is just not needed (or at least they think so). For some, nut skills simply don't develop at all if they have more gear than they need, because they will always take the "easy way out" and plug in a cam. I have also seen that their eyes get "tuned" into seeing only cam placements. With the most georgeous bottle-neck nut placement an inch away, they still prefer a mediocre slightly flaring cam placement. 

What I would do differently starting out: Don't trust your mentor to decide what gear you "need"! I ended up with a fig-8 rap device and a dedicated gear sling that I never needed. Never buy a hex that is smaller than your biggest nut. 

Patrik wrote:

I have different thoughts on this. I have seen in the last ten years or so a LOT of beginners starting out with a shiny rack of double set of cams and single set of nuts. After two years, they have a rack of "experienced" double set of cams and a still very shiny set of nuts. With zero relevant experience in placing nuts. Starting out with less gear than you "need" will force beginners into practicing creative solutions. IMO this is a lot safer when being on easy "beginner terrain" than after two (or four) years they want to start pushing the grades into 5.10 or higher. Yes, I know that there are areas where climbing with only cams works fine, but there are also places where solid nut skills are absolutely required, especially in "non beginner grades" (5.10 and up). Many beginners seem to be suspicious about passive gear and are very trusting in cams that do not come out no matter how they yank on them. When placing only cams, many develop a "plug-and-go" attitude where fine tuning a placement is just not needed (or at least they think so). For some, nut skills simply don't develop at all if they have more gear than they need, because they will always take the "easy way out" and plug in a cam. I have also seen that their eyes get "tuned" into seeing only cam placements. With the most georgeous bottle-neck nut placement an inch away, they still prefer a mediocre slightly flaring cam placement. 

What I would do differently starting out: Don't trust your mentor to decide what gear you "need"! I ended up with a fig-8 rap device and a dedicated gear sling that I never needed. Never buy a hex that is smaller than your biggest nut. 

Interesting point. In my own development it's really come down to trusting nuts in small placements more than I trusted finger-sized cams.

Have I mentioned a dozen times yet how much I LOVE the DMM offset stoppers? 

AndrewArroz wrote:

Interesting point. In my own development it's really come down to trusting nuts in small placements more than I trusted finger-sized cams.

Have I mentioned a dozen times yet how much I LOVE the DMM offset stoppers? 

LOL! So does Patrik!  Almost as much as tricams. And how about those metolius curved nuts, oh boy!

mountainhick wrote:

LOL! So does Patrik!  Almost as much as tricams. And how about those metolius curved nuts, oh boy!

The curve nuts go in well. It's getting them out that's the issue. Perfect bail gear.

Patrik wrote " Don't trust your mentor to decide what gear you "need"! "...hum...this is a slippery slope.  So if he/she is not trust worthy on gear, then what ARE they trustworthy on?

Patrik wrote:

I have different thoughts on this. I have seen in the last ten years or so a LOT of beginners starting out with a shiny rack of double set of cams and single set of nuts. After two years, they have a rack of "experienced" double set of cams and a still very shiny set of nuts. With zero relevant experience in placing nuts. Starting out with less gear than you "need" will force beginners into practicing creative solutions. IMO this is a lot safer when being on easy "beginner terrain" than after two (or four) years they want to start pushing the grades into 5.10 or higher. Yes, I know that there are areas where climbing with only cams works fine, but there are also places where solid nut skills are absolutely required, especially in "non beginner grades" (5.10 and up). Many beginners seem to be suspicious about passive gear and are very trusting in cams that do not come out no matter how they yank on them. When placing only cams, many develop a "plug-and-go" attitude where fine tuning a placement is just not needed (or at least they think so). For some, nut skills simply don't develop at all if they have more gear than they need, because they will always take the "easy way out" and plug in a cam. I have also seen that their eyes get "tuned" into seeing only cam placements. With the most georgeous bottle-neck nut placement an inch away, they still prefer a mediocre slightly flaring cam placement.

All that makes me almost glad I learned how to climb and protect before cams existed.

Nick B wrote:

Anti cross loading belay lockers. They are a pita and not necessary.   Get a nice big autolocking hms biner (triple action or magnetron. Not dual action like twistlock, you are better off with a screw gate in that case) and call it good.

Almost.. this style biner is sweet for rope travel on a glacier, or any other circumstance where you have to tend a locker and its orientation.

In retrospect after 12 pages - it probably would have been a good idea to restrict the conversation to exclusively rock climbing.

Never been happier to uncheck the Notify on Site button for a thread. 

Roy Suggett wrote:

Patrik wrote " Don't trust your mentor to decide what gear you "need"! "...hum...this is a slippery slope.  So if he/she is not trust worthy on gear, then what ARE they trustworthy on?

Your mentor should be able to show how to use the gear, not necessarily knowing what type of gear fits your style of climbing. Some mentors might still haul around two cordelettes, double PAS, and triple tricams (which is rarely ever "needed" nor suitable outside the Gunks).

Patrik wrote:

...and triple tricams (which is rarely ever "needed" nor suitable outside the Gunks).

Not triples, but I've found tricams very useful in the solution pockets on some Whitehorse Ledge (NH) friction routes.

rafael wrote:

said by the guy who has so far only advanced anecdotes about cheap headlamps being superior.

Seriously, if you have done some research on headlamps, share it. If not, you are just trolling. 

I have at least an n of 20 on headlamps.  Not all of them were owned by me personally, but I'm including what other people have had that I was able to compare to my own.  There were many instances wherein someone else's cheap headlamp made by a battery company was much brighter and lasted longer than the expensive ones I owned. I have yet to see an expensive headlamp ($60-80 range) make a significant difference relative to a cheaper version.  Other people in this thread have suggested the same. 

Also, how was my original two line post about headlamps any different than all the other posts about gear people thought unnecessary? If I was trolling, so is every legitimate post in this thread.

I literally posted two lines of script about headlamps that I didn't even think warranted any response, but I had someone jump up my ass about it, so I defended that post with a bit of sarcasm.  Following that, I had a pack of angry chimpanzees pounding trees, shaking branches, at me... over an opinion on headlamps.  Nonetheless, because it seems to get you so upset, I'm happy to keep mocking you.  My endurance for maintaining the obnoxious exceeds that of a twelve dollar headlamp.

Marc801 C wrote:

He also says he has a propensity for losing headlamps, so he's making his blanket recommendation on a data point of one.

Always a condescending comment coming from your direction.  Then you follow it with the personal ego boost:

"All that makes me almost glad I learned how to climb and protect before cams existed"

Are you getting your strategy from Donal Trump?  

Nick Drake wrote:

If you want a large sample size go to any meeting of the mountaineers, boe-alps, WAC, Mazamas, etc... Outside of your little bubble there are actually a lot of people in the world who care about more than cragging single pitch routes. 

And a lot of people who don't take headlamps so seriously.

NRobl wrote:

And a lot of people who don't take headlamps so seriously.

Can we all agree, for the purposes of this thread, that a headlamp is needed for most climbers?

Is there anyone here who bought a headlamp when they were a noob and now it just sits, lonely, in that box with all their hexes and figure eights?

Ever since I bought my night vision goggles, my headlamp has been relegated to the dead gear bin.

Seriously though, Andrew is right.  Seeing a rope length at night is fairly important, and argues for a good headlamp (not one made by a climbing company).  But having SOME headlamp to rig your raps and such is the real deal breaker.  A bad headlamp is UNLIKELY to kill anyone, so everyone can just chill and make purchasing decisions as they see fit.

In fairness, other than the no helmet suggestion, I don't think anyone has said anything here that might get someone killed.  So that's something.

AndrewArroz wrote:

Is there anyone here who bought a headlamp when they were a noob and now it just sits, lonely, in that box with all their hexes and figure eights?

No but I can think of a time when I was too damn stubborn to buy a head lamp and was constantly walking back to the car in the dark and sometimes getting lost along the way. Any headlamp is a hell of a lot better than no head lamp. 

I agree with both of you guys.  Thank you!

Clothes.

barefoot naked climbing because everything else is gumby aid shit.