Be clear about the bird closures around here, OK? YOU ARE ON CAMERA!

curt86iroc wrote:

read this and tell me if you believe cyber-bullying is still harmless...

https://www.aaup.org/article/new-reality-far-rights-use-cyberharassment-against-academics#.WqgBuGr4_3g 

That sounds like a bad time - there are a lot of things going on there that are bad/likely illegal, but none of them are what we're talking about.  E for effort?

Just a reminder of what this is about (I love this first photo!):

Morley Nelson with one of his golden eagles, early on. Sorry, I don't know who is holding the peregrine (?). Morley was with the 10th mountain in WWII, a pioneer in raptor research and conservation, a falconer, and, the man the Morley Nelson Snake River Birds of Prey National Conservation Area is named for. The NCA celebrates its 25th anniversary this year, but the work to establish it goes back much farther.

I got to meet Morley late in his life, and his birds, too. What a treat that was!

Best, OLH

@Adam, my apologies. I was set to flag myself this morning, lol, and ask the admins to tidy up this thread, but they beat me to it. I hunted up the thread that prompted our email exchange a year ago. You were a good guy then, actually quite thoughtful, and you're a good guy now. Truly, sorry I went off on ya. Helen

Helen, perhaps you were high or drunk when you typed the messages I'm referring to, it's not what you forwarded and you don't seem to remember.  None of this matters, just refrain moving forward and we'll be "all good"

In any case, just keep away from these climbing areas during raptor nesting closures or you could be ruthlessly made into CLIMBING MEMES and might inadvertently get dragging into a dumpster fire. It just isn't worth it. 

mcarizona wrote:

It sounds like you taught them it was ok to break the law as long as they didn’t get caught. 

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

You need signs more visible than this?

Nope that sign is awesome, just saying the other available resources on the web are not always up to date.

Old lady H wrote:

Those are all I found in my email. They reminded me of who we are both capable of being, so thank you sir.

Not drunk or high. Don't do either. Overstressed, exhausted and brain dead? Shit yeah, and no end in sight. That's no excuse, though! 

Best, Helen

Stop referencing private conversations the whole site isn't privy to.

High drama in MP today!

jg fox wrote:

Stop referencing private conversations the whole site isn't privy to.

Just call me DMT

Cheers

DMT

Locals Only wrote:

Just call me DMT

Cheers

DMT

Ha! You should go back with a sock puppet account and stir more trouble up.  The Joshua Tree bolting thread got their blood pumping.

jg fox wrote:

Ha! You should go back with a sock puppet account and stir more trouble up.  The Joshua Tree bolting thread got their blood pumping.

You say that like I'm not already doing it

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Tony, any hints about where the birdies chose to nest this year?

That is not a past tense yet.  They have been seen around, but are not yet incubating... they can visit several nests prior to choosing, and may carry branches to more than one as well, before selecting.  In other words, we don't know just yet, that's why the volunteers and Cameras are up there.

Tony B wrote:

That is not a past tense yet.  They have been seen around, but are not yet incubating... they can visit several nests prior to choosing, and may carry branches to more than one as well, before selecting.
In other words, we don't know just yet, that's why the volunteers and Cameras are up there.

Lemme know when you find out. I'm looking for some beta on disturbing birds and I hear the USFS takes nice pictures.

But actually I'm joking, I hope this gets resolved and there's no long term effects on access (or the birds).

Mike McHugh wrote:

GPRP:

I work with ACE, MP admins, and the CPW web team to keep this information up to date. I will be posting a closure later on today (Upper rattlesnake and Continental Crag this year, golden eagles). I'm also the guy that hangs all the signs and installs fences, obstacles, trail cameras, and such - there's no way to just throw a switch, it takes about one business day to get it all in place.

In case you're interested, the Eldo eagles spent a little extra time selecting a nest this year. That's why this closure is going in late.

Mike

Thanks for your hard work, Mike, and for responding to help illuminate the situation.

mcarizona wrote:

Well, no, not exactly.  But also not entirely incorrect.
You read the part about getting USFS permission to publish and why/why not, right?
Don't think for a moment that this is being approached casually, if that is your impression.

And no, the people do not have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" when climbing on public land past cameras.
And no, it is not "personal" bullying when we have no idea who it was.  This action, if taken, is taken against a violation, not a particular person.

Gold Plated Rocket Pony wrote:

Nope that sign is awesome, just saying the other available resources on the web are not always up to date.

Yes, understood.  Then there would be a defense of 'failure to notify' if the agency actually ticketed it or took it to court instead of dropping it.
Let's not conflate 2 very different situations.  I saw that the official in Eldo has responded to you with both an answer as to what is going on and a timeline for when it will be done.

The situation at hand is USFS, however.

Tony B wrote:

And no, the people do not have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" when climbing on public land past cameras.
And no, it is not "personal" bullying when we have no idea who it was.  This action, if taken, is taken against a violation, not a particular person.

Seems analogous to news sites posting photos of a break-in or robbery in the hope that someone can identify the perp.

 So worry about cyber bullying 20 somethings more than seeing access getting shit canned? Huh?

Tony B wrote:

DISCLAIMOR:  I am not in control of this and I do not speak for the USFS.  
I just happen to have a relationship with the USFS stemming from being a former Board member of the LCO, and from volunteering on the Eagle Monitoring program, and have been trying to re-negotiate the closure extent.   Which is remarkably pertinent here, because we recently started an effort to negotiate a shrinkage/reduction of a closure right next to a nesting area that we believe is unnecessary large.  Likewise, some of you may have noticed that the closures are smaller, more restricted in time, and that the USFS has grown much more climber friendly.
We are being encouraged to self-police as an alternative to being policed by law enforcement.  And it would be great if nobody f&@#ed that up, right?
But I digress...

I am sure that a majority of climbers already know that the Eagle nests are monitored by camera from late January to mid September.  
There are nest cams and cams on the rock overall set to monitor the birds, and anything else that moves in the area, for that matter.  These pairs are being studied by the USFS.

Which leads me to the next point...  (As history sighs, and repeats itself AGAIN... 'You know, this happened a few years ago, right?')

Earlier today, pictures from a USFS Bird cam of a pair of climbers in the wrong place at the wrong time were sent to me by a volunteer.
The pictures were NOT YET shared with the USFS officials or law enforcement.  I and a few others were asked if we can identify those climbers.

I don't really care what happens to a few climbers who did the wrong thing, but I would like to be sure that the community as a whole, will not suffer their mistake.
So... put yourself in my shoes for a moment.  What would you do?  Or maybe ask yourself what would I do? (here we go...) 

For those who have been around long enough, you might recall 2 years ago something like this happened on a different route.
Pictures were sent to the same group and the person was identified.  He got let off of the hook specifically because he owned up to it and he got eaten alive on this site.
You might recall that the offender ended up in the USFS office to turn himself in.
The thread here was removed because the kid didn't need to suffer his whole life for it, and like I said, he owned up to it.
The USFS thought maybe he (and the community) might have learned from that, and that he was unlikely to repeat his mistake.
I was kinda hoping the legend of that ordeal might discourage people from repeating the mistake, but clearly not fully.

Back to the main point...

The pictures I mentioned were taken on the USFS cameras.  It is federal property, and it was closed, so give that some thought.
Would anyone like to PM me and raise their hand and convince us that we don't need to go chase them down?
If you do, I'll send you a nice set of 10 pictures of the two of you on your 'proj as a reward.  The light was great yesterday between  2:12PM - 3:32 PM, so they would be pretty nice photos for your collection.

For my own part, I hate to see someone suffer too much for a stupid mistake, but at the very least, I don't want the USFS seeing this as if we don't care.
So how much energy do we have to put into this?  And we know exactly what route at what time on what date and have photos already.
It's a small world, and the internet is a big place.   Think it over, and send me a PM if there is something you'd like to get off your chest.

On the other hand, if someone has to go to the trouble of hunting... then someone might get 'shot' in a metaphorical sense.  
Should we post the pictures here for the community to Identify the climbers if we can't figure it out like last time?

Post the pics already. It's a small percentage of climbers that actually read the MP forums. Maybe they would turn themselves in but you need to cast a wider net.

Tradiban wrote:

Post the pics already. It's a small percentage of climbers that actually read the MP forums. Maybe they would turn themselves in but you need to cast a wider net.

I agree - better yet, send them to me and I'll do some sweet photochops that we can post instead for greater effect.