What do you expect from a gym?

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Who chalks up 100% of a hold?  I get chalking up to your elbows when bouldering, but every last inch of real estate on each hold?  

you don't seriously think this is an advantage.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOO MY EYEES111111111111!!!!!!!!

Andrew: That's an acceptable arrangement sounds to me. Unfortunately mine doesn't really have the real estate for that. Though apparently they have openened a small climbing/mostly training gym in town as a 2nd location. Maybe (hopefully) they plan on moving most kids group there.

And it makes sense too - like an 8 years old have a hard time on routes set for grownups. Having routes sets with closer toghether holds makes full sense...

climbing friend,

I expect them to NOT be charging on me the $8 to "rent" a lead rope, like Grand Valley Climbing Center in Grand Junction, city of the many white peoplez. This is most despicable. 

I expect constant unrelenting bi- or tri-weekly route-setting in most creative and artistically expressive manner, oh yes.

I would be expecting most glorious meat cave, where I may take off my shirt for one-arm-rapid-campus-flash your projectz, incredible physique and untold athletic abilities displayed for all to see to be impressing on the others.

I expect vibrant and never awkward gym dating scene. 

vote here:    https://strawpoll.com/8475c9hk

Techno music and noobs secretly teaching other noobs how to belay to avoid the introduction course. 

Franck Vee wrote:

Andrew: That's an acceptable arrangement sounds to me. Unfortunately mine doesn't really have the real estate for that. Though apparently they have openened a small climbing/mostly training gym in town as a 2nd location. Maybe (hopefully) they plan on moving most kids group there.

Yeah, that's the beauty of a built-to-purpose climbing gym instead of something shoe-horned into an old warehouse. I doubt most communities can financially support something like this but there are some pretty spectacular gyms being built.

Aerili wrote:

When I climbed at the Momentum gyms in SLC, they used monochromatic holds. While tape has its annoyances, I agree with the poster stating monochromatic setting ensures the holds all look the same when viewed from above. It becomes one giant monochromatic wall when you are looking down and trying to find footholds. It doesn't matter if the lighting is good and your vision is 20/20.  

This is interesting because I have had the exact same experience at Momentum, while at The Front where I currently have my membership, I have very rarely had the same issue.  I'm just kind of curious about why this is now that I think about it.

As far as my true issues I have with gyms:

1. Boulderers who set routes based on the hardest move, so a 5.12a route doesn't have a single move harder than V4, so it's 5.12a right?  Well that could be the case, but when every single move on the 70 foot route clocks in at V4, suddenly that route became much harder.  Obviously consistancy in grading isn't easy, but I feel like this is a common problem I see and we moved away from the hardest move making the rating of a route 20 years ago now.

2. Bad clipping holds/stances.  When I bolt a route outside, my number one concern is with making sure that the bolt location is at the best location for clipping, I feel like when setting a route inside the same care should be given.  Many routes seem to be put up with absolutely no thought to clipping whatsoever which in my mind is just a sign of a very lazy setter.

3. A/C in the summer.  Sure I can climb outside in the summer except  for those days that it's too hot, or that I can't find a partner, or whatever else.  If I need to climb in a gym in the summer I need A/C.  I don't pay $100 a month for a climbing sauna.

4. Having enough dedicated lead terrain.  Recently, the gym I climb at most often (the closest one to my house) decided that they needed more TRs (There was already a completely seperate TR area, and another area that had both TR and Lead), so they went and hung TRs on 75% of the previously dedicated lead area as well.  Now if I want to lead I am fighting my way through the hanging TRs with the chance of getting tangled in them or rope burns if I take a lead fall with no way to get them out of my way.  

5. Dyno/trick setting.  I get it, sometimes it is really fun to do an all points off dyno, so I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any at the gym, but when every route 5.10 an up has a manditory all points off dyno on it, once again it just shows lazy setting.  Not all indoor climbing needs to mimic outdoor climbing exactly, but at least put some more realistic routes up please.  I can't think of a single manditory all points off dyno that I have ever done outside on routes up through at least hard 5.12.

6. Related to point 5 above, having every boulder problem end with a dyno to the lip.  I'm sorry, but I value my knees and anchles, please stop being lazy setters, I don't want to fall from the top of a 20 foot tall bouldering wall even if there is a foot of padding under me.  You can put one more hold on the wall, not change the difficulty at all, and then I can be in control as I top out on a problem instead of always having to throw, if you absolutly need a dyno on the route, put it lower where a fall has less concequences.  

7. Volumes in the fall zone on vertical routes/problems.  Does this really need to be explained to anyone?  Yet I seem to see it all the time.

I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head, these are my main issues with many modern gyms that I have been to.

John Wilder wrote:

Interestingly, good design and a patient head setter can ensure that a tape less gym is as dense or nearly as densely set as a taped one. Ours is a good example of that- we get 4 routes per line and 25 boulder problems in 25 feet of wall (give or take, depending on the section). 

Photos or I call BS... Regardless, for bouldering, there's no getting around being able to use the same hold for multiple problems w/ monochromatic setting: imagine doing that on the Moon board.

With regards to problem density, how many problems do you really need? If I run out of V(x) problems to do, I just start working on V(x + 1) problems, and repeat that until x is high enough that I can't realistically do the problem before it gets taken down. If there still aren't enough problems that close to your limit, then it seems like your gym needs to set more difficult problems, not just more problems. Obviously how often things get re-set is a relevant factor, too.

I suppose there's not enough demand to justify setting a lot of V10+ problems, so maybe if you're a beast this doesn't work for you. But for us mortals I'd rather have a few quality routes made of monochrome holds that are easy to distinguish than a ton of overcrowded routes.

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Who chalks up 100% of a hold?  I get chalking up to your elbows when bouldering, but every last inch of real estate on each hold?  

you don't seriously think this is an advantage.

That's a pretty extreme example - once you get to the point where you're using double colors or ordering exotic tape colors from Thailand or whatever, it's gone overboard. The gym/closet at UDel looks like this, and it's bad. But comparing the higher (but still reasonable) density at the half-dozen tape gyms that I've climbed at to the lower density and readability at the half-dozen mono gyms that I've climbed at, I find the taped ones, on average, preferable.

In my opinion, the gym needs to be big enough to accommodate the amount of traffic it gets. Cramming 6 routes per anchor doesn't matter if you only have 4 anchors; only 4 people can climb. I admit to being spoiled in that regard. VE, being the largest gym in the country, has plenty of anchors, multiple lead-only areas, and 3 bouldering areas (one of which is adults-only). Even with multiple birthday parties/field trips, there are areas where no kids will be climbing.

They typically only have 2 routes set per anchor, and all are monochrome. The only time it's ever a problem is when they set similar colors near each other, but that only seems to be a problem if you're color-blind. (One of my regular climbing partners is partially color-blind, and has put in a suggestion to avoid similar colors on adjacent routes.) If anything, I hate it when I'm trying to climb a crimpy 5.11, and there are massive 5.8 jugs or a volume from a different route inhibiting movement; higher hold density just makes that worse IMO.

Lena chita wrote:

I agree with you, but this ship has sailed, on routes for sure. There are still some holdouts setting a really dense wall of taped holds on bouldering walls, but the new fashion trend is to have monochromatic route-setting, and have only couple routes per rope, so the close-color issue is not a problem. The big new gyms have plenty of real estate to accommodate the monochromatic setting, they like the "clean" look, the tape leaves no residue on the wall, nobody has to pick up pieces of tape from the floor, where they inevitably fall when gumbies climbing in sneakers do their desperate foot scrabbling, and nobody has to go back up and refresh the tape on the hold that lost their markings.

And they use far less holds and have less variety per route.  I have seen it time and time again at every gym that sets monochromatic.  Bigger spacing between moves and less footholds used.  

Aleks Zebastian wrote:

climbing friend,

I expect them to NOT be charging on me the $8 to "rent" a lead rope, like Grand Valley Climbing Center in Grand Junction, city of the many white peoplez. This is most despicable. 

I expect constant unrelenting bi- or tri-weekly route-setting in most creative and artistically expressive manner, oh yes.

I would be expecting most glorious meat cave, where I may take off my shirt for one-arm-rapid-campus-flash your projectz, incredible physique and untold athletic abilities displayed for all to see to be impressing on the others.

I expect vibrant and never awkward gym dating scene. 

But at least you can sometimes find routes that are up for 6 months so that in the event you really want to project something, you can!

Forget what any of you think, you aren't the target audience at the gym.

Tradiban wrote:

Forget what any of you think, you aren't the target audience at the gym.

Beat you to it on page 1:

As much as I like to think my business is important, the fact is I'm not in a big user group

I know most of the setters @ my gym and and luckily setters tend to set things they themselves like to climb so it has worked out fine for me so far.

Tradiban wrote:

Forget what any of you think, you aren't the target audience at the gym.

Well, that's undoubtedly true for any gym, climbing or otherwise. From the perspective of the management, we don't represent their main source of revenue. That being said, if a gym has good setters, and the gym is big enough to accommodate the volume of traffic it sees, it is possible for us to coexist with the birthday parties, new year's resolution crowd, etc.

reboot wrote:

Beat you to it on page 1:

As much as I like to think my business is important, the fact is I'm not in a big user group

I know most of the setters @ my gym and and luckily setters tend to set things they themselves like to climb so it has worked out fine for me so far.

Damn, I wished that would saved everyone the talk, talk, talk.

I'm not saying a gym isn't open to suggestions but if they are operating on par with most gyms they have probably thought through almost everything suggested here.

I guess my point is that if you want to see a change at your gym frame it to them in a way that makes it sound like it will be good for business or make their lives easier. In fact, if you would like to see a change anywhere for anything this is a pretty good strategy.

Tradiban wrote:

I guess my point is that if you want to see a change at your gym frame it to them in a way that makes it sound like it will be good for business or make their lives easier. In fact, if you would like to see a change anywhere for anything this is a pretty good strategy.

I'm not sure owning/operating a climbing gym (or most jobs in the outdoor industry) is the most lucrative business strategy. Many gym owners are climbers themselves and the best you may be able to do is appeal to their sense of pride/joy in their chosen profession. Which is also why the large chains (e.g.: the ET, PG merger) scares me.

Dylan B. wrote:

You say that as though it’s a good thing.

Well, it's definitely a wise business strategy. Same reason ski mountains support kids competition teams and "little bear" camps, even though it's not a big revenue stream itself. Without new participants any sport/business is dead in a generation.

My daughter got really into climbing after she had a B-day party at a local gym and saw the comp team. Now, several years later, she's an amazing climber, indoors and out, and it'll be a lifelong thing for her. I climbed before that but me doing it wasn't the same as her seeing other kids being great at it.

AndrewArroz wrote:

Unfortunately this isn't true. I've run the numbers and not many customers are coming from the teams and bday parties.

Smaller points not mentioned above, I say this as someone who does a lot of travel for work and visits many gyms:

- My favorite thing a gym can offer: workspace. I LOVE bringing my work to the gym and interspersing an hour of coding/whatever with 20 minutes of bouldering etc. Yes, workspace takes climbing space :(. Example: BB in Somerville (Boston) has an amazing set up on this front but damn you sure have to pay for it.

- Gyms should do a good job cleaning their climbing holds. Unfortunately I realize this costs staff time, but the feeling of climbing a newly set route with fresh holds/friction is a great feeling. One of the joys of being there early. Example: My university gym is awful for this, holds might as well be polished wood.

- The workout/training area should not be an afterthought/small & crowded. Example: You can't even use half the training boards at the Milwaukee Adventure Rock gym because someone is doing core workouts or some sort of ridiculous looking leg lunge thing across at the base.

- Gyms should not have ropes just to have ropes. If your walls are two moves higher than a boulder problem, just chop them and make it a top-out boulder. Example: This is my #1 gripe I have with my local gym who, with a total monopoly, haven't really had to consider what the best use of the space is. I will give them credit, at least, that they don't price gouge or anything (they easily could).

- I know I am in the minority here but I like gym employees that nitpick belay technique and are encouraged to engage with climbers. We can all develop bad habits. Example: Love some of the conversations I had with employees wandering the bouldering area at the Summit Gyms in Dallas, they get people talking and set a great example/vibe.

- Gyms should post notes on the routes if the setter knows it is a powerful/height dependent/footwork intense climb. Example: Portland Rock Gym in PDX does this well. It helps you quickly ID climbs you might like even if you only have a short time in the gym.

- Plz no speed climbing, that's 4-6 routes that could be there. Example: Vertical Endeavors in Glendale Heights I think is one of the only gyms big enough to warrant the speed lanes.

Fingers crossed some gym owner does all of the above and opens a new gym exactly wherever I get a job next