Requesting "Ladies Crag" forum

FrankPS wrote:

Not sure there would be any "harm," but it could be a lot of extra work, creating and moderating it.  He's not obligated to argue it ("have a conversation") with anyone.

There could be a lot of work to it. That might be the answer. I don't know, that's why I asked. And no, Nick is not obligated to answer my question, but nor am I obligated to anticipate that he might not choose to answer my question and preemptively not ask it in the first place. 

Em Cos wrote:

There could be a lot of work to it. That might be the answer. I don't know, that's why I asked. And no, Nick is not obligated to answer my question, but nor am I obligated to anticipate that he might not choose to answer my question and preemptively not ask it in the first place. 

Ha! Touche! I would think sixteen pages of conversation has been had, and the judge has rendered his verdict. But, you're right, you can still question it.

Nick Wilder wrote:

We have discussed the Women's Only thread quite a bit internally and decided not to do it for now.  I'm going to try to maintain a better level on all forums, and I'm afraid a Women's Only forum will be a target that could significantly increase the shitty posts instead of vice versa.

Also, I have made the following changes related to the forums (and photos) in general:

1. Photos can now be flagged, just like comments or forum posts.  The link is below the photo, next to the ID number.  I get these notifications like the others and will deal with them.
2. Photos can be set as "Not Safe For Work".  When set as such, that photo will not appear on the home page, will be demoted to the bottom of the list of photos on route/area pages, and future comments will be disabled (these photos attract poor comments).  To maintain a consistent standard (as in the forum), I'm the only one that can set this.  If you see a photo you think is NSFW, use the flag tool.
3. I will more aggressively move political and non-climbing topics to the "Community" forum.  
4. Topics in the Community forum will no longer appear on the home page nor the "Latest Posts" page.  That will cause them to die out fairly quickly, but allow people to keep discussing it.
5. I've added the topic title and forum name to the reply form, which might help people stay on topic.
6. A person can now only reply to a given topic 5 times in the last 5 hours.  This should decrease the shouting matches and topic takeover that happens occasionally.  There also remains a limit to replies in all topics (20 per 18 hours, less for new users).
7. A given topic will automatically lock after 1000 replies.  The horse will be beaten enough by then.  The topic can be re-started in a new thread, but all the subscribers to the old one will be lost, which is the point.
8. If you reply to a topic that has had no activity for over 60 days, you will have to confirm that you want to resurrect a dead thread.

Some of the specific rules might change a bit (maybe 5 replies to the same topic in 5 hours isn't enough for example).  We have a few more forum-related ideas on the back burner, but they are more difficult to implement, so we'll see how these work first.

What about just starting it and spending all the effort and energy required for the above list of rules on governing the ladies forum more strictly?  More and more rules has its draw backs as well. 

climbing friend,

maybe this thread it would be locking after the necessary 1,000 responses, hopefully quite soon? That would be quite nice, oh yes quite nice. haha hahaho ha hya ho myah!

all your flash are belong to me.

all your pointless "bickering" are belong to me.

wonderwoman wrote:

Can you please elaborate more on this reasoning?  Truth be told, I am disappointed.  None of the other items that you outlined would make me want to participate on MP anymore than I do now.  

Forget it Jane. It's Chinatown.

wonderwoman wrote:

 Truth be told, I am disappointed.  None of the other items that you outlined would make me want to participate on MP anymore than I do now.

Your negative attitude and lack of constructive contribution won't be missed. 

Wonderwoman, from boston where you repeat each year -  that you can for a fee -  teach pre-leading classes to get people ready for the real world? . I find your other posts to be fun and informative, but standing up for the segregation of men & women is stupid, period. I could say Man Up, hmm that wont do.. "Grow A Pair? that has the same issues I guess, The point is that boyz/Men are infantile when boobs make an appearance. If the idea of 1 moderater seems daunting think how it will be when that one has to oversee others. More work, not fun work, We should all just try to self police

Michael Schneider wrote:

The point is that boyz/Men are infantile when boobs make an appearance. 

Well, not always. On rockclimbing.com the women only forum worked well as far as I remember. When women wanted to discuss things like urination aid devices and feminine hygiene on big walls, amazingly most if not all men were silent. But on occasions where women with children brought up how they lamented that they were climbing less frequently and at a lower grade, some men would offer what their wives did about that and such. It wasn't that men were excluded, it was more acknowledgement that women ran the party. 

Tim Stich wrote:

Well, not always. On rockclimbing.com the women only forum worked well as far as I remember. When women wanted to discuss things like urination aid devices and feminine hygiene on big walls, amazingly most if not all men were silent. But on occasions where women with children brought up how they lamented that they were climbing less frequently and at a lower grade, some men would offer what their wives did about that and such. It wasn't that men were excluded, it was more acknowledgement that women ran the party. 

This.

It worked there, why can't it work here? There's been so much effort (16 pages!) expended explaining why it would or why it wouldn't or why it should be or why it shouldn't be. 

Just try the damned thing for 6 months and see what happens.

Tim Stich wrote:

Well, not always. On rockclimbing.com the women only forum worked well as far as I remember. When women wanted to discuss things like urination aid devices and feminine hygiene on big walls, amazingly most if not all men were silent. But on occasions where women with children brought up how they lamented that they were climbing less frequently and at a lower grade, some men would offer what their wives did about that and such. It wasn't that men were excluded, it was more acknowledgement that women ran the party. 

Something like this sounds great. I think we can all benefit by adding more voices to the conversation and I suspect that the introduction of this forum would encourage many who browse silently to speak up and contribute to the discussion and learning. 

wonderwoman wrote:

I never advocated for segregation.  As stated above by some of the guys who remember, there was a successful 'ladies room' forum on rockclimbing.com (may it rest in peace) that had great discussions about things like periods, pregnancy harnesses, and the like.  If an infantile or inappropriate remark surfaced, it was quickly removed. If the offender was that egregious, the user was given a time out or banned.

Regardless, you should absolutely be self-policing.  It's not just 'immature' comments about women that I have seen on this forum.  Users on here have made comments about women that would make me watch my drink were we to be having a beer in the same bar.  This would not have flown anywhere on rc.com, nor should it be tolerated here.  

Yes - please self police.  We need you step up and do so online and in life.  I praise all the men who say 'that's not cool' when someone steps out of line.  That is the type of community that we need across the website.  That is the type of community that I want to belong to.

Well spoken, and agreed.

Nick? There are more than a few of us who will speak up. This isn't all up to you to "police", nor should it be. 

Just my two cents. Thanks again for the hard work, sir! 

Best, Helen

wonderwoman wrote:

I never advocated for segregation.  As stated above by some of the guys who remember, there was a successful 'ladies room' forum on rockclimbing.com (may it rest in peace) that had great discussions about things like periods, pregnancy harnesses, and the like.  If an infantile or inappropriate remark surfaced, it was quickly removed. If the offender was that egregious, the user was given a time out or banned.

Regardless, you should absolutely be self-policing.  It's not just 'immature' comments about women that I have seen on this forum.  Users on here have made comments about women that would make me watch my drink were we to be having a beer in the same bar.  This would not have flown anywhere on rc.com, nor should it be tolerated here.  

Yes - please self police.  We need you step up and do so online and in life.  I praise all the men who say 'that's not cool' when someone steps out of line.  That is the type of community that we need across the website.  That is the type of community that I want to belong to.

Very constructive response. Thank you. 

climbing friend,

perhaps there can be the creation of a "wang-slapping forum?" It is where all the sexually frustrated and insecure "grown ass men" may attempt "swordfight" through tubes of internet, as well as arbitrary conflict creation and arguing - in desperate attempt to validate their own existencez of theirownselvz and prove to themselves they are not most completely inadequate and unworthy? In a world perhaps most scary and devoid of it the meaning except that upon which you would be placing it?

T G wrote:

Apropos of this discussion is a timely blog post by Caterina Fake titled Online Communities Gone Bad (and getting them back on track) that may be of interest to Nick and team. Nick, you may know Caterina– or at least know of her– she and her former husband Stewart Butterfield started Flickr and Stewart of course went on to start Slack. Caterina knows a thing or two about curating thriving online communities that are inclusive of all.

Thanks for the link.  I met Caterina a long time ago (I also started a photo sharing community, which sort-of competed with Flickr for a bit).  I like the advice about removing 5-10 people regardless of their other contributions.  I'll keep it in mind.

Nick Wilder wrote:

Thanks for the link.  I met Caterina a long time ago (I also started a photo sharing community, which sort-of competed with Flickr for a bit).  I like the advice about removing 5-10 people regardless of their other contributions.  I'll keep it in mind.

I was really hoping this thread had died, but here I am. 

I am all in favor of a women’s forum. It’s ludicrous to me that other people are against it. It doesn’t mean you have to participate if you don’t want to, but it’s there for those who do. 

But then we come to the question of moderation. Whether in the women’s forum or in general. And does no one else find it ironic that a male is being asked to moderate an all female forum? If Nick Wilder is doing the moderation, then Mountain Project becomes skewed through his lense. this is supposed to be a community forum  with lots of different points of view, not the view of one man. I don’t know the official history here but I gather this is his creation, but I’d imagine he wants different points of view, otherwise things would be pretty monotonous. 

There are obviously examples of people being blatant assholes, but I think you can argue that others walk that line, whether obliviously or intentionally. I don’t have a feasible answer on how to deal with these situations. I know I just wince when I hear heavy moderation by 1 person in a community setting. In my humble opinion I think we all loose something when that happens. 

mediocre wrote:

I was really hoping this thread had died, but here I am. 

I am all in favor of a women’s forum. It’s ludicrous to me that other people are against it. It doesn’t mean you have to participate if you don’t want to, but it’s there for those who do. 

But then we come to the question of moderation. Whether in the women’s forum or in general. And does no one else find it ironic that a male is being asked to moderate an all female forum? If Nick Wilder is doing the moderation, then Mountain Project becomes skewed through his lense. this is supposed to be a community forum  with lots of different points of view, not the view of one man. I don’t know the official history here but I gather this is his creation, but I’d imagine he wants different points of view, otherwise things would be pretty monotonous. 

There are obviously examples of people being blatant assholes, but I think you can argue that others walk that line, whether obliviously or intentionally. I don’t have a feasible answer on how to deal with these situations. I know I just wince when I hear heavy moderation by 1 person in a community setting. In my humble opinion I think we all loose something when that happens. 

My understanding is that the moderation would be an attempt to include more voices and different points of view that otherwise wouldn't be heard. Although this is undoubtedly a vast simplification, my understanding is that, by moderating, we are getting rid of a few trolls and assholes and trading them for other voices and points of view.

Also keep in mind that is only applying to a specific sub-forum and people who don't care for it can still do as they please on the rest of the forums.

eli poss wrote:

My understanding is that the moderation would be an attempt to include more voices and different points of view that otherwise wouldn't be heard. Although this is undoubtedly a vast simplification, my understanding is that, by moderating, we are getting rid of a few trolls and assholes and trading them for other voices and points of view.

Also keep in mind that is only applying to a specific sub-forum and people who don't care for it can still do as they please on the rest of the forums.

So how do you magnify some voices in an online forum and dull down others? 

The call for heavier moderation has been made, by some , for all forums, albeit especially for the ladies forum. 

I'm disappointed.  I am only a daily lurker here, but I definitely would have felt more comfortable stepping out more in this new forum.  If anything has shown me how much we need a women's forum, it was a post a few months back when a woman got absolutely DRAGGED for her worries about what getting pregnant and having kids would mean for her climbing career. She wanted other's experiences and instead was called a troll and ridiculed mercilessly.  I related to her post SO much but was so disheartened by the responses.  I regret not making my first post then in support.  As someone who is quickly nearing the time I will be wanting to start a family, I am already feeling like I have to grieve over what I might have to give up (climbing and ability-wise) to do so. I will soon be craving the experiences and advice from other climbing parents,  especially mothers.  But unfortunately after that thread, I would NEVER feel comfortable broaching that topic (or many others) here on this site  without a ladies forum.  I think it would have been a wonderful addition and I hope it might be reconsidered.

Also disappointed.  I could say more ... but not as well as recent posts.

mediocre wrote:

So how do you magnify some voices in an online forum and dull down others? 

The call for heavier moderation has been made, by some , for all forums, albeit especially for the ladies forum.  

I'm not sure we'd be magnifying some voices as much as just hearing them for the first time. And how to dull down others, I think the time out function seems like it would do this.