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New to lead climbing, help with gear and general questions
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So I’ve been indoor top rope climbing for a couple years now (5.10d) and I’m planning on making the jump to outdoor sport lead climbing. I have about a million questions as far as gear and protocols go that I was hoping to get a little help on before I head out (with some more experienced friends of course). So far, the lead rope gear I have is: Now for about a million questions: 1 - Are 10 quickdraws generally enough for start out with for beginning lead climbing outdoors? I opted to go with mostly 12cm over 18cm as I figured I wouldn’t be doing too many overhanging to start out with and by the time I do, I’d need a new set anyways. Would more (of either length) be a good idea? 2 - I’ve been watching and reading about top rope anchors and it seems there are about a million ways to do one. I opted to go for the double length sling over the 7mm cord as it seemed like a simpler setup. My understanding is that after tethering each end with a locking carabiner, you can tie either a single overhand or figure eight, the former being quicker to tie and uses less cord, the latter being easier to untie, but both just as safe. I’ve also seen a few tutorials that forgo the knot and use a “magic x” instead, but that seems like it would shock the system if one point where to fail, putting greater stress on the remaining. 3 - How are routes generally cleaned? It was my understanding that the first person up sets the quickdraws and a top rope anchor. The second person up can then either clean the route as they climb or anyone can clean as they’re lowered. The person cleaning the top anchor then sets up a self rappel by: 4 - Which rope to buy? I’ve heard conflicting advice, some people saying to just buy whatever is on sale, while others have told me that I should invest in a higher quality rope from the beginning because it’ll last longer and be rated for more falls which I’m likely to take. I was planning on the Mammut Infinity Dry 9.5mmx60m and don’t mind spending the money, but wouldn’t mind saving it if it’ll just go to waste. 5 - Any other lead climbing specific gear I should pick up (have all the general stuff, i.e. harness, chalk, etc) or words of wisdom? Thanks! |
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climbing friend, all would be becoming clear if you would find some victims/friend to go climbing with out of doors for several weeks passing. You are welcome. all your flash are belong to me p.s. do not utilize unnecessary gear of PAS, and for certain do not wear it as a thong between the legs. also do not utilize deadly ATC or other similar tube style device, striking the fear into the hearts of good climbers everywhere! |
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Do you have an experienced outdoor climber you can go with and learn from? They could help you learn what you need and don't need. |
FrankPS wrote: Sadly my usual climbing partner is indoor only much like myself. We've been trying to find a friend between us who has some outdoor lead experience but it's been difficult. |
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Where are you located? If you're near outdoor climbing, more than likely there is someone else here on MP in the same area that'd probably let you come along and perhaps teach you the basics that youre asking about. You can post in the regional section of the forum and see what happens. First hand experience is so much more valuable than reading and youtube. |
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If you have only climbed indoors, wouldn't it make sense to lead indoors first before heading outside? Lead climbing/belaying is no joke. Proper instruction will pay for itself in no time. Helmets? If you already have a PAS might as well get a helmet. The only thing you can't practice indoors is anchor cleaning, but some gyms have anchors on the ground that you can use to practice. Cleaning is only part that can be dangerous so you really want to do it a few times on the ground before you even do it outside. It's not too hard to hang your quickdraws on the wall in your apartment somewhere and simulate cleaning if you really don't have access to any sort of instructions other than youtube. |
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Truthfully, if you're climbing properly bolted sport routes you really don't need anything more than 2 extra draws for your TR anchor. I have a pair I've put lockers on just to feel extra secure when I leave my TR up and let the kids go crazy with it. But normal sport draws (non-lockers) will work fine, too. Oppose the gates. |
Cameron Habib wrote: Can the two of you hire a guide for an afternoon? Where do you live? |
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Post your location, I'd be happy to go outside with you sometime, if you're local. |
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Keywords "magic X" and "gri-gri /ATC" have been mentionned - I predict 12 pages. |
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But more seriously.... There isn't much of a point IMO in having different length for draws. Ultimately, the couple centimeters won't do much in terms of rope drag - because significant drag would happen only when the extra cms don't really matter. If you climb in places where rope drags tends to be a concern, then buy a couple of slings, loose non-locking carabiners & make alpine draws. If drag is going to be a concern on a route, it may very well be mentionned on MP/guidebooks and you would see that it will zig-zag in some ways just by looking at the bolts & rock layout. 10 draws isn't that much. Ideally a 12-15 is ideal, especially because unless you're the rope gun for top ropers, you will just typically just 2 draws with gates opposed for anchors. So that eats up 2 draws. If it doesn't (because you're climbing with other leaders), then you have 2 extra draws - 12 is mostly enough and 15 is almost always enough. On a single pitch I've seen 18 but that's rather rare. EDIT: also if you're climbing with other leaders, they have draws. You don't need to provide all the gear all the time either.... Practically speaking, having a second cleaning routes is somewhat rare - well it would happen if you are rope gun for tope ropers who kinda know what they are doing. Like I wouldn't have a newbie top roper clean routes because how are they going to manage the anchors? But then if they are experienced outdoors with anchors and stuff, chances they will probably wan to lead it anyways. So often you would either rappel to clean, or be lowered & pick draws on the way down (me mentionning this just added 5 more pages to your thread). Exception would be really steep stuff (or some really steep section on otherwise not so steep stuff), then you may want to clean with the second on TR. Don't buy a DRY rope - you pay extra for that. A dry rope is only realy useful if you fancy climbing rocks in the rain (unlikely unless you're going into some multi-pitch epics) or if you are ice climbing (which you haven't mentionned). Really just get any dynamic rope that happens to be on sale. Generally, ~10mm ropes are going to be cheaper (but bulkier). Stuff like different sheat (to easily pick up the middle for rappel) and/or markings of the middle are going to be more expensive too. Unless you're into multi pitch, probably not really worth the trouble. 60m is usually enough, but then some areas fancy 30-35 meter long routes so that may warrant a 70 meters. I'm a huge fan of 70 meters because I like to just be able to to a route and not be stopped by route length, but that's just me.... Really at the beginning, you're not THAT likely to take huge whipper because you'll chicken out of a route before you get to the huge whipper zone. Unless you're a bit of a kamikazee. What's really going to eat up your rope is going to be top roping (if there's friction with the rock/rope drag), or lowering to clean (me mentioning that just added 2 more pages), or lowering when the rope has friction with the rock. Also not cleaning your rope, and/or not having a bag to prevent most of the sand/dust from getting on it will be bad. Point being there are a lot of factors that you can control that will affect the lifespan of your rope and I don't think huge whippers are likely to be the main ones. You get comfortable with huge whippers when you're more experienced, IMO. |
Franck Vee wrote: |
txclimber wrote: Better is to just bring a few alpine draws, rather than a few 16cm quickdraws to complement your 12cm quickdraws. |
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climbing friend, searching for the perfect length quickdraw it is like searching for the mythical clitoris. many brave men and women have searched for it for thousands of years passing since the dawn of time, but few have found it and most are quite uncertain, and even if it is located, many questions may remain. |
Aleks Zebastian wrote: Why the hate on a PAS? I use mine all the time. |
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Brad Johnson wrote: climbing friend, you may utilize it if it pleases you greatly. it is not needed however for young one with burning desire to buy as much gear as possible with fixed amount ca$h and start "lead climbing." |
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About your anchor biners - I'd go with two different biner pairs (one for the bolts, one for the masterpoint), so that you don't get sharp nicks on the bolts biners and then later use them as the rope biners, slicing up your sheath. I'd also get symmetrical biners for the MP, so that you can oppose them and have the same profile (like the Omega Pacific Jake locker https://www.omegapac.com/itemdetail.php?id=63) |
Briggs Lazalde wrote: Of course you have border cases where couple cms will change something - my point however is that if you're that concerned rope drag and/or friction with bulges on the rock, you're better off with a couple of alpine draws. Most of the time you can figure out from the ground that it'll be the case (or have a mention on MP/guidebook). But then in serious cases of rope drag & roofs & bulges, the 6 cm will probably not do that much for you.... But an alpine will. Plus you get a sling if you need it. |
Cameron Habib wrote: I think your gear list looks just fine for now. When I started, I had 10 12cm draws, two 120cm runners (for either an anchor or as leashes when cleaning the anchor), 4 locking biners for the anchor, and an ATC w/ locker. Now for your questions. 1. Yes, I think 10 draws are enough to start. Realistically, as a new outdoor climber, you'll be going with someone experienced who will also have some draws. I've found its nice to offer to use your equipment as they are teaching you skills, but then you have extra if you are getting on something super tall. 2. I'm like you and went with slings vs cord because there seemed to be more uses for a sling. I also do an overhand or fig 8. In CO, the majority of sport routes have anchor bolts that are close together and level, so I typically will tie the knot on the ground, get all my biners in their place, and rack it, so its easy to get the anchor set up. Side note, one thing I'm still bad about is throwing a QD on one of the anchor bolts when I first reach the anchor and having my belayer take. This makes it MUCH easier to get your anchor set up. 3. I'd rather not try to walk through how to clean and lower/ rappel. If possible, see if your gym offers a class on this. Many do, as they know the next step in climbing is going from indoor to out. Depending on location, you may also be able to find a guiding service that teaches the same thing, but outside. I did mine through the Colorado Mountain School. Barring that, find an experienced outdoor climber and ask them to walk you through it with all the equipment. Then YOU walk them through it, as if they know nothing. Then go up and clean one yourself, talking through what you're doing with them. For example, you'll yell down "Ok, I'm clipped directly into the anchor, now I'm going to untie my knot. I've threaded it through the rap rings" This way, if you've forgotten a step, they can correct you before a catastrophe. I did this the first time I rappelled. 4. I like the advice others have given. Anything fairly robust (I'd say over 9.5 to 10.2 or 3) is fine. I did see one person saying don't bother with a dry treated rope unless you plan to climb in the rain. I'm not sure I agree with that. At least a dry sheath should be considered. Two reasons. One, I've heard it repels dirt a bit better due to the treatment, which is always a plus. Two, god forbid you get caught in a storm or something, it would be nice to at least have some protection on there. I'm not firm on the numbers but ropes do lose elasticity and strength when wet. 5. Not for now. I think as you start climbing outside, you'll learn more about your preferences and needs. I think you're on the right path. If you live in the front range of Colorado, let me know. Happy to get outside. I was in your position last winter. Picked up all my gear during the off season on sale and climbed a ton once spring came. Most important will be someone to at least show you the basics. |
cjohns716 wrote: True for dirt, but I wouldn't pay extra for dry treatment just for that. If you keep your rope in a bag & clean it every once in a while, you'll protect your rope just as well as a dry treatment would. I still don't see what use a a dry rope would be for single-pitch sport climbing and moderate multi-pîtch. If you got caught in a storm, the rock is presumably wet, in which case I presume your climbing day is over. If you're about to rappel, it doesn't matter, as you can still rappel safely on a wet rope - it looses elasticity but you don't need elasticity to rappel, only to take falls while leading. To me this is somewhat like bringing you rain jacket to the beach. |
