Big Wall Anchors

So I've been looking for the thread on big wall anchors, and haven't been able to find it. Anyway I have a question for big wallers, when building your master point anchors, do you create 2 master points? One would be for hauling, and the other would have the fixed lead line. Or do you create one point and fix the lead line and then haul off that same point? Thanks for the feed back!

headlampsclusterfucksandoth…

hudonpanos.com/

I rig up the three lockers for the lead line the way Mark demonstrates - the second jugs on the lead line equalized with a clove and a butterfly.

Then I have a double runner that I tie off for an overhand masterpoint and haul off that.

But don't listen to me, because I'm a shitty wall climber. Listen to Mark.

Don't cluster up your anchor with master points if the anchor is modern bolts.
Theee bolts, three knots, "off belay, jumar when ready".
Clip the haul kit to the middle bolt, get the haul line through it and start hauling. No "ready to haul" bullshit, just get hauling, Your partner has been down at the lower anchor for a while and he better have everything ready to go.
All that should take you 10 minutes.

Go to my site and down load the Big Wall Anchors PDF.

If you like using a sling to form a master point, and plan to haul from it, hang bags from it, or hang a ledge from it, I recommend using an alpine butterfly for the master point, not an overhand or a fig 8. This will be more important the thiner the sling.

Here is how to do it: people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

Mark Hudon what is the name of your site?

Owen Silitch wrote:

Mark Hudon what is the name of your site?

Three posts above yours is the answer: http://www.hudonpanos.com/

(You know, like, had you bothered to read the thread.....)

Marc801 C wrote:

(You know, like, had you bothered to read the thread.....)

As a high school teacher in English for ten years I can assure you that the majority of our future crop of climbers (and just society members) will not look around for answers because they've been trained by technology to just ask google and on forums we become google. 

Thread drift: my favorite thing to do was towards the beginning of the school year tell my students, "look around the room. These are the people that will handling your finances, your health, and everything in between. There's no secret cache of awesome people that we call upon to take on the activities in the upper-middle importance in our society. Just let that sink in for a bit then we'll get back to reading some cannonical fiction to take your mind off the fact that even if you decide to buckle down and become one of the "good students" our government and educational institutions now only you see you as a source of revenue through crippling financial aid debt and inflated tuition (respectively).

At the risk of taking an opposite stance to Mark, who has done many more, and harder, walls than me...

I'm not sure his way of just placing a locker on each bolt is best for beginners unless they are well organised ones. 

I have found a long PAS is ideal for beginners. Clip the thing to two bolts, leaving one chain at each end dangling down. This gives lots of attachment points for every from the climbers to cameras. With less chance things get trapped under or onto of each other. Put the trax on a locker through the PAS lock on one of the bolts to keep it as high as poss.

I like the PAS idea.  

FWIW, I think Mark's solution is the best if you're swapping leads, but if you're leading in blocks or short fixing it helps to have some kind of master point for the lead line.  I like a double length sling with pre-tied limiter knots, but whatever.  Don't haul off that master point, though - keep things separate.  Just another option to have in your quiver.  

David Coley wrote:

At the risk of taking an opposite stance to Mark, who has done many more, and harder, walls than me...

I'm not sure his way of just placing a locker on each bolt is best for beginners unless they are well organised ones. 

I have found a long PAS is ideal for beginners. Clip the thing to two bolts, leaving one chain at each end dangling down. This gives lots of attachment points for every from the climbers to cameras. With less chance things get trapped under or onto of each other. Put the trax on a locker through the PAS lock on one of the bolts to keep it as high as poss.

It's confusing to imagine how putting a locker on each bolt and then tying a butterfly to each locker then a quick adjustment is going to be more difficult than other methods. Using just the PAS is going to an issue eventually ("ok I'm hauling now, shit, need to adjust some things to haul, damn, I'm attached to these bolts and can't adjust anything until the haul is finished, crap, can't haul till I adjust myself")

i agree with the point bout swapping leads though. If you're doing blocks or solo then marks method is by far the best. If you're going to be swapping leads then it can get a bit wonky and the masterpoint becomes a viable alternative. TBH though, if this happens to me, my partner and I will just untie and retie to the opposite ends of the rope when the time comes because after all, I've got two daisies to keep me safe while this happens.

Hi Kevin,

I find that those new to the complexities of big wall anchors can find lots of attachment points useful. For example, we have the lead line, the sling that holds coiled lead line, the trax for the haul line, the sling that holds the coiled haul line, attachment point(s) for the leader, attachment point(s) for the second, possibly attachment points(s) for the the third if there is one, the haul bag docking cord, the haul bag back up cord or attachment, the cleaning sling whilst the leader is re-racking, a water bottle, a camera. Then, when plans change: "you take this pitch it has reachy bolts", "let's put the ledge up now" or another team turns up to pass, it gets even more fun and things can get trapped under other things. If you do everything in the right order and in a sensible way this all seems to work out of course with just two large lockers. However, I've noted that some find this more difficult during their first couple of walls. With a PAS one has 10 "bolts" to clip into, and because those "bolts" are flexible even a trapped carabiner can be easily untapped. 

I've not suggesting this is "the" way or the way most people would use, but if you are new to more complex piles of stuff, and have got into a slow mess, it is worth trying - and possibly worth reporting back here.

To add my two cents: I used the PAS system going up the nose a few weeks back and found it awesome. Two PASs with dedicated lockers made for really quick anchor setups and almost zero clusters due to trapped biners. Most anchors on the nose are two bolts so it was great to have lots oof spots to clip into and keep the rope layers organized

I'm a wall rookie though, maybe if I were a pro I would feel differently but this system worked really well for our team.

I've tried many anchor systems in my time walling (both when I was a noob, as well as in my current "experienced" state), I can understand the theory of the more connection points equals more convenience, but when you're talking about "the best" and "ideal" method for new and inexperienced climbers, added convenience often leads to added cluster simply because their inexperience denies them the ability to know HOW to use that convenience to move effectively and efficiently. 

With Mark's method, the false arguement of one needs to be in the right order and a sensible way to keep things from getting clustered ignores the part where it's not about  "just two lockers" and instead treats the two large lockers as a large point to add things (more lockers, slings, etc) giving both the new and the experienced climber the ability  to decluster and adjust without needing to add an additional device  to your tie-in pints or belay loop in addition to the aiders already there. 

But all methods are differently perfect for all kinds of climbers so each will choose their own method and only after miles of pitches will each climber decide what is ideal as the best for themselves as their style of climbing and desired experience. 

It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than this. Always clip UNDER the lead line and ALWAYS have the lead line knots closest to the gates..

Mark Hudon wrote:

It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than this. Always clip UNDER the lead line and ALWAYS have the lead line knots closest to the gates..

Except if you are block leading, then using the lead line for the anchor is not an effective solution.

Simple is good, but there are benefits to using a cordalette or similar anchor setup.

Garrett, if you are leading in blocks, how much time could it possibly take to swap ends of the rope? 

Benefits of a cordalette on a modern Yosemite 3 bolt anchor? 

Let's also make an assumption that not everyone is anchoring on Yosemite granite...lets talk Zion sandstone...although the size of load could logistically be smaller.

Mark Hudon wrote:

Garrett, if you are leading in blocks, how much time could it possibly take to swap ends of the rope? 

Benefits of a cordalette on a modern Yosemite 3 bolt anchor? 

I can't say definitively that it is time-saving either way, but I'll take tying and untying a cord over needing to deal with a personal anchor to go in direct, untie, retie. That is the benefit of a cordalette, fairly quick setup, defined masterpoint, no need to swap rope ends. If you prefer otherwise, that's fine.

Feels like freeclimbers are trying to apply their methods to the bigwalling world. 

David Coley wrote: If you like using a sling to form a master point, and plan to haul from it, hang bags from it, or hang a ledge from it, I recommend using an alpine butterfly for the master point, not an overhand or a fig 8. This will be more important the thiner the sling. Here is how to do it: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/butterflysling

Your link is dead btw.

Yes, the world of big wall climbing ain’t all Yosemite! 

No matter what the technique, if you feel safe and confident with it, it’s the way to go. Don’t ever let anyone dictate your level of safety.