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Borrowing a lead rope from the gym

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

People's ignorance of how a a business works, specifically a climbing gym, is astounding. It's people like you that make me glad I gave up on the whole gym thing. Anyway, here's my points:

-Any gym has a contractual responsibility to guard against injury and therefore payout from their insurance company. There are guidelines and some specifics from the insurance company that the gym must adhere to but mostly it's up to the gym. Overtime the few insurance companies that will actually insure a climbing gym (there's not many choices) have learned more about the business and have insisted on a few things here and there. This is how insurance companies work, they learn about a business and then try to mitigate the risks in that business so that they don't have to pay out. They will try to spin this to say they want to make the world a safer place but we all know it's about the $.

-Not allowing teaching in the gym by non-employees is a way to mitigate risk and a good one too. One thing a gym is mandated to have is a standard way of belaying and testing. If you've got some random person teaching his/her own way you can't control that standard. It's important to have a standard so that all staff is one the same page, this is "ok", that is not "ok", without it there's chaos.

The point is that various gyms have their own rules for their own reasons. If they think it's safer to wear a purple hat while belaying, then just do it and please don't badger the staff about it, they didn't make the standard they just enforce it. If you feel like you have enough people behind you and your cause then write something up for the owners with a clear and concise argument about why you want a policy to change. Likely, you are going to get a nice response with an obvious reason about why the policy is the way it is, that you didn't think of. Then you will probably feel stupid for bringing it up in the first place and feel obligated to apologize for being such a jerk about it. I know how you will feel and what what you will do because I've dealt with it so much I had form emails set up for it.

Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

-Not allowing teaching in the gym by non-employees is a way to mitigate risk and a good one too. One thing a gym is mandated to have is a standard way of belaying and testing. If you've got some random person teaching his/her own way you can't control that standard. It's important to have a standard so that all staff is one the same page, this is "ok", that is not "ok", without it there's chaos.

That is a ridiculous statement. Mandating the standard is done by having a belay test.  Who taught the person is irrelevant as long as they can pass the test. I've been climbing since '93.  I don't need instruction and who knows if the guy who taught my beginner class at Exum is even still alive, but I can pass the test so who cares.

The point is that various gyms have their own rules for their own reasons. If they think it's safer to wear a purple hat while belaying, then just do it and please don't badger the staff about it, they didn't make the standard they just enforce it. If you feel like you have enough people behind you and your cause then write something up for the owners with a clear and concise argument about why you want a policy to change. Likely, you are going to get a nice response with an obvious reason about why the policy is the way it is, that you didn't think of. Then you will probably feel stupid for bringing it up in the first place and feel obligated to apologize for being such a jerk about it. I know how you will feel and what what you will do because I've dealt with it so much I had form emails set up for it.

A lot of gyms have rules that aren't actually safer.  I had a guy at a gym tell me I needed a back up knot.  There is no evidence to show that back up knots increase safety.  If you're tied in wrong the back up knot won't help and if you're knot is good you don't need one.  Climbing gyms seems to think that what they are selling is so crazy risky but there are tons of circumstances where businesses do things that are at least as risky. For example I rented a huge jack hammer at Home Depot with no instruction and virtually no paperwork. People get hurt in gyms because they are lazy and not paying attention, Not because the gym has the best mandated belay instruction.

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
Mydans wrote:

That is a ridiculous statement. Mandating the standard is done by having a belay test.  Who taught the person is irrelevant as long as they can pass the test. I've been climbing since '93.  I don't need instruction and who knows if the guy who taught my beginner class at Exum is even still alive, but I can pass the test so who cares.

I think you are overlooking the point. Nobody is saying that a person can't come in and take a test. What he's saying is that a gym is a business with liability for what happens on its premises. If they knowingly allow someone besides their staff to come in and instruct others on their premises they legally are assuming a lot of liability not only for what may happen right there in the gym while you're instructing but, also, because there's a perceived approval and blessing they've bestowed onto the instruction by allowing it. This is why you NEVER want to tell a gym you're going to instruct or teach anyone anything. However, I've always found they're very supporting of practicing skills. So choose your language wisely and have a good time.

I saw a guy teaching a woman how to belay in the parking lot at Sender One LAX the other night so that she could go in and pass the belay test. Do what you've got to do. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Mydans wrote:

That is a ridiculous statement. Mandating the standard is done by having a belay test.  Who taught the person is irrelevant as long as they can pass the test. I've been climbing since '93.  I don't need instruction and who knows if the guy who taught my beginner class at Exum is even still alive, but I can pass the test so who cares.

A lot of gyms have rules that aren't actually safer.  I had a guy at a gym tell me I needed a back up knot.  There is no evidence to show that back up knots increase safety.  If you're tied in wrong the back up knot won't help and if you're knot is good you don't need one.  Climbing gyms seems to think that what they are selling is so crazy risky but there are tons of circumstances where businesses do things that are at least as risky. For example I rented a huge jack hammer at Home Depot with no instruction and virtually no paperwork. People get hurt in gyms because they are lazy and not paying attention, Not because the gym has the best mandated belay instruction.

You are missing the point as Andrew says. You need to see it from the gyms perspective.

The point of the back up knot is that if someone ties an overhand by accident but does do a safety knot the knot will slide against the overhand if the overhand slips.

The Sender One policy of teaching outside stems from my policy from many years ago, if someone can learn of premises and then come in and pass the test with our parameters then they are good to go but rarely does the parking lot instruction work out well and I would have to fail people anyway. 

Btw, one reason to charge for the test is to force people to really evaluate if they can actually pass it or not. Often people would ask for the test only because their partner wanted them to but they really had no business even attempting the test. You can see how this would be a problem for staff.

Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

As I mentioned before I have worked in climbing gyms.  We didn't differentiate between someone instructing their friend versus someone practicing.  In fact we often recommended that people who were learning to lead with a more experience partner take a lead rope and lead while clipped into the auto belayer as a back up.  All that we were concerned with was whether the people belaying or leading had passed the test.  There is more than 1 correct way to belay (Thumb up or down, do you shuffle hands or pinch and slide) and with the variety of devices out there are gyms now mandating that climbers take the test with a particular device? There are a bunch of ways to clip too but as long as the rope is through the draw correctly then who cares.  I see more people misusing a grigri than standard plates but many climbers seem to think that the grigri is by nature safer. In a place like Boulder many of the customers in the gym are way more experienced than the people who work there. One example I can think of is one of the best all arounders in the country.  He's still on sighting 5.12 on gear in his mid 50's but he never uses a standard tie in knot.  I was climbing with him one day and looked at his knot.  It was a weird combo between a bowline and an 8. I asked him about it and he said he learned it decades ago in England and he liked it because its more stable than a bowline but easier to untie than an 8. He's probably taken 100's of whippers on it.  It would never pass a test but it works. Are gyms going to start saying they won't allow climbers to use a bowline anymore? We can agree to disagree but I guess my argument is that there is often more than one way to safely do something and since gyms are where many people learn to climb these days they need to be able to try different methods and see what works for them.  If their friend is teaching them and its categorically wrong they won't pass the test.  I agree with the OP who thought it was ridiculous and I wouldn't climb at that gym either. 

I guess this officially makes me the surly old dude but I guess I have to accept that cheers :-)

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Mydans wrote:

As I mentioned before I have worked in climbing gyms.  We didn't differentiate between someone instructing their friend versus someone practicing.  In fact we often recommended that people who were learning to lead with a more experience partner take a lead rope and lead while clipped into the auto belayer as a back up.  All that we were concerned with was whether the people belaying or leading had passed the test.  There is more than 1 correct way to belay (Thumb up or down, do you shuffle hands or pinch and slide) and with the variety of devices out there are gyms now mandating that climbers take the test with a particular device? There are a bunch of ways to clip too but as long as the rope is through the draw correctly then who cares.  I see more people misusing a grigri than standard plates but many climbers seem to think that the grigri is by nature safer. In a place like Boulder many of the customers in the gym are way more experienced than the people who work there. One example I can think of is one of the best all arounders in the country.  He's still on sighting 5.12 on gear in his mid 50's but he never uses a standard tie in knot.  I was climbing with him one day and looked at his knot.  It was a weird combo between a bowline and an 8. I asked him about it and he said he learned it decades ago in England and he liked it because its more stable than a bowline but easier to untie than an 8. He's probably taken 100's of whippers on it.  It would never pass a test but it works. Are gyms going to start saying they won't allow climbers to use a bowline anymore? We can agree to disagree but I guess my argument is that there is often more than one way to safely do something and since gyms are where many people learn to climb these days they need to be able to try different methods and see what works for them.  If their friend is teaching them and its categorically wrong they won't pass the test.  I agree with the OP who thought it was ridiculous and I wouldn't climb at that gym either. 

I guess this officially makes me the surly old dude but I guess I have to accept that cheers :-)

It doesn't matter how long someone has been climbing or how hard they climb. What is important is the standard as I discussed previously.

Most gyms do not allow the bowline now because it's harder to check visually and has a tendency to come loose and undone.

A smart gym is concerned with keeping their gym injury free before making sure people are exposed to all options. It's not their business to teach people how to climb outside, their only business is how to climb in their gym.

Mark Says · · Basalt, CO · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 395
Jake Jones wrote:

If they were smart, they would allow it.  Demanding that only one knot is used, you open yourself up to more liability, actually.  If someone takes a belay test and signs off that the gym recommends a figure 8, then if the climber chooses to use something different, they have acknowledged that the gym recommended the figure 8.  Now, if the gym demands that everyone uses a figure 8 and someone gets injured because a bowline was tied incorrectly, the first question asked is "why was the climber allowed to climb with a bowline when a figure 8 is all that's allowed?"  The staff is much more responsible for ensuring everyone is tied in correctly if the gym demands only one knot is used.  

Sounds logical, but does that really extend to the reality if it comes down to a legal matter?

Given very prolific evidence that fine print and other warnings can eliminate or greatly reduce liability, such as the warning on a Coca-cola machine that it could tip over and kill you , the disclaimer on every pharmaceutical ever that you shouldn't take it if you're allergic to it (no shit?), the list could easily go on... I would think that if the gym explicitly declares that only Figure 8s are permitted, and someone is subsequently found to have hurt themselves while using a bowline, then the gym is immediately in the clear if sued.

"We only permit figure of 8's, and the persons involved hurt themselves purely because they used an inappropriate knot " (disregarding the actual reason they hurt themselves).

"It is the gyms responsibility to inspect every tie in, at all times" (impossible and easy to argue against)

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Jake Jones wrote:

If they were smart, they would allow it.  Demanding that only one knot is used, you open yourself up to more liability, actually.  If someone takes a belay test and signs off that the gym recommends a figure 8, then if the climber chooses to use something different, they have acknowledged that the gym recommended the figure 8.  Now, if the gym demands that everyone uses a figure 8 and someone gets injured because a bowline was tied incorrectly, the first question asked is "why was the climber allowed to climb with a bowline when a figure 8 is all that's allowed?"  The staff is much more responsible for ensuring everyone is tied in correctly if the gym demands only one knot is used.  

Negative Jake. Basically because what Marcus said but overall it's bad for a gym to have ANY accidents regardless of of what the waiver says. Any accident will open you to liability somehow.

Believe me, I have made all these arguments to the insurance people who make the decisions.

frank minunni · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined May 2011 · Points: 95
Marc801 C wrote:

I’ve encountered climbers with 3 yrs lead experience that still don’t know what they’re doing or how to do it safely. 

I've been at it for 40 years and I still don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Also, in America, letting a bad thing happen or ignoring a bad thing in your business will open you to liability as well.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Talking about gyms and their bullshit is depressing, we should all just go outside.

Victor K · · Denver, CO · Joined Jul 2003 · Points: 170

This is a strange situation. I follow the gym/insurance reasoning and sort of nod along as if it makes sense. But then i think about my actual experience as a climber and it's really odd. Climbing has traditionally been "taught" through mentoring. Even now, after nearly 20 years, I'm still getting guidance from peers. How does a gym decide whether or not a person is "teaching"? It's a truism that if someone hurts themselves in your gym, YOU'LL GET SUED! But climbing is, in fact, dangerous. Obviously. Can anyone speak to actual lawsuits related to this subject? Or are all these businesses just being EXTRA careful?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Victor K wrote:

This is a strange situation. I follow the gym/insurance reasoning and sort of nod along as if it makes sense. But then i think about my actual experience as a climber and it's really odd. Climbing has traditionally been "taught" through mentoring. Even now, after nearly 20 years, I'm still getting guidance from peers. How does a gym decide whether or not a person is "teaching"? It's a truism that if someone hurts themselves in your gym, YOU'LL GET SUED! But climbing is, in fact, dangerous. Obviously. Can anyone speak to actual lawsuits related to this subject? Or are all these businesses just being EXTRA careful?

Since I have time to kill...

Yes, I can speak to actual lawsuits but really the details are too long to get into via the forums.

In general the gym will be contacted by a lawyer who is asking for details regarding an incident. This is refered to your insurance rep who shows the lawyer a proper waiver and then you never hear from the lawyer again UNLESS "gross negligence" is present. Rarely is GN proven as it's a high bar but also rarely do these things actually come to a court case and the insurance company simply settles out of court. In this scenario no one really gets the details of it anyway.

A climbing gym isn't really concerned with how climbing has traditionally been taught or learned or anything. They are concerned about their liability in case of an accident. It isn't about what "teaching" is or isn't, it's about controlling their environment. This, in nut shell, is what an insurance person wants to see. 

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911

 I'm whipping right now at the gym, bowline and hip belay baby, its too crowded for anyone to know.

;)

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

As a business, it's a smart move to avoid all these arguments and just institute a simple, easy to understand, and efficient system to "protect your ass-ets". (Huge bonus points to whenever can name the gym industry person to whom this refers to).

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
T Roper wrote:

 ;) how you goin steal BB’s winky smile :)

Jim T · · Colorado · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 469
Matt Pierce wrote:ridiculousness

Every gym I’ve been to does what the OP describes (not allowing teaching lead belay/climbing).  Movement, RnJ, ET, Thrilkseekers...

Matt Pierce · · Poncha Springs, CO · Joined May 2010 · Points: 312

Who removed my post!?!?! After receiving a very friendly email from Uber I went back to revisit this thread and my comments have been removed! WTF MP? This seems to be a growing trend...

Paul Deger · · Colorado · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 36

Back to the OP - never wrong to ask, and if you do not like the answer, 3 options: 1) Go with it, 2) go to another gym, 3) go outside. You are a guest at the owners business and have no “rights” based upon your knowledge or skill.  

Andrew Steavpack · · Castle Pines, CO · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 105

Even if they are to allow you to borrow it if the gym does know about your skill level or knowledge of teaching belay skills, it would set a precedent that requires a definition of the "skill necessary" to teach someone to lead at that gym and if the partner you teach were to cause an injury or drop you or someone else that responsibility, while morally is on you, would legally be on the gym so they have to set a standard for everyone to follow. Either just do mock lead for them to climb and practice their belay with an auto belay or just go outside and avoid the fuss and drama.  Can't really blame the gym, however you probably could have just said you wanted a lead rope to climb and taught them anyways and the gym would be none the wiser to you teaching them. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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