Climbing harder by not climbing hard?

Ted Pinson wrote:

I’ve heard people talk about consciously applying active foot pressure and/or “grabbing” holds with your toes on overhangs

Yep. That's a must.

Committed foot never slips.

Pavel Burov wrote:

There are several limiting factor in the context of the task of reaching that hold. To name a few:

1. Do you really stand on your toes?

2. Do you push your core really hard?

3. Do you have enough flexibility to do all body work needed?

4. Do you really engage all that flexibility?

5. Do you really commit when committing to that dead point move?

There are way more limiting factor to list. None of them would refer to the term "crimp".

If one needs to crimp to reach higher there are chances that particular one lacks something important about foot- and body- work and positioning.

I have climbed mid 12 without crimping and 10c full crimping on several holds. There is a lot more to it than this. Full crimping provides outward resistance in a way that permits the hips and therefore feet to move in ways you cannot do in open hand, on certain holds. It is not a function so much of the full crimp being stronger as it is certain holds being better for certain hand positions. 

Dan Austin wrote:

Totally fair, and I would tend to agree with you. What I was getting at is that for a true training newb, RCTM is great in that it offers a comprehensive off the shelf plan that literally tells you what to do day by day.

From personal experience, this was incredibly helpful for getting started training. Once I got the hang of their program, I felt confident enough to experiment more and change the structure, but I wouldn't have really known where to start if I was just trying to pull together a training plan based on Bechtel's blog, the Power Company blog, Eva Lopez, etc.

In the years since I started training, there have been a lot more comprehensive training programs published, so the OP doesn't necessarily need to start with the RCTM. I still think it's the most exhaustive single training resource out there, though. Even if you don't follow their program, I think it's a valuable read just to immerse yourself in the terminology, frameworks and concepts that are mostly still relevant in other programs. 

Yeah I totally agree it's well worth reading through for someone who wants to step into training. I really like the ideas laid out by Bechtel in Logical Progression for the average climber who has longer climbing seasons (or no season) or just want to improve while having a plan that allows for much more flexibility. It does leave quite a bit to be desired in the details on the methodology of training though, without coming into it with a decent prior knowledge of training I think many people could get lose. Especially considering you'll be making your own plan. 

.On the flip side though, if someone doesn't have access to climb on real rock frequently and is just training for a couple big yearly climbing trips the RCTM program probably works great. 

Nick Drake wrote:

Yeah I totally agree it's well worth reading through for someone who wants to step into training. I really like the ideas laid out by Bechtel in Logical Progression for the average climber who has longer climbing seasons (or no season) or just want to improve while having a plan that allows for much more flexibility. It does leave quite a bit to be desired in the details on the methodology of training though, without coming into it with a decent prior knowledge of training I think many people could get lose. Especially considering you'll be making your own plan. 

.On the flip side though, if someone doesn't have access to climb on real rock frequently and is just training for a couple big yearly climbing trips the RCTM program probably works great. 

I love both of these books. However, I think for someone getting into training initially, Horst's Training for Climbing is the way to go. It covers the basics better than the others and is a more complete volume. It covers theory, session planning, season planning, and exercise categorization more robustly than either of these. This makes sense as the other two books are intended for more advanced (RCTM) and significantly more advanced (LP) audiences than T4C. RCTM should only be followed by a fairly narrow set of people, and nonlinear periodization can be great for new people, but I think reading Logical Progression before more basic training books will leave a beginner scratching their head.

Pavel Burov wrote:

If one needs to crimp to reach higher there are chances that particular one lacks something important about foot- and body- work and positioning.

And if one says "use only open hand", there is a chance that one lacks understanding of the advantage of different grips. Crimp, like the open hand, is a technique. Just like any other technique, there are times to use it, and there are times not to use it. It’s like telling people don’t ever lock-off, use only twist lock to climb. You should keep both in your repertoire, and use as appropriate.

The crimp, as I mentioned, bring your wrist a couple of inches closer to the hold. What I didn’t elaborate is that since your wrist is a major pivot point in your hand, this create a shorter lever arm between the hold and your wrist. Having a shorter lever arm give you mechanical advantage to move your body into a certain position, or push your hand in a certain way, that is more efficient than an open hand. Like Jon Frisby pointed out above, it also put your fingers in a better angle to pull on a hold in a different direction than open hand. This has nothing to do with the strength of the grip, but everything to do with the position of your body, from your fingertips all the way down to your toes.

This whole idea of “climbing only with open hand” is similar to “climbing only with silent feet”, it sounds great on paper so people started to repeat it like some gospel. But the reality is that the grip you use should depend on the shape of a hold and what you’re trying to do with it, not some hard and fast rule. I mean, you don’t try to fit four fingers into a mono do you? So why would you try to open hand a hold that’s better with a crimp?

aikibujin wrote:

And if one says "use only open hand", there is a chance that one lacks understanding of the advantage of different grips.

Yep. Seems, you got the point.

This whole idea of “climbing only with open hand” is similar to “climbing only with silent feet”

It is way more similar to idiotism.

Nivel Egres wrote:

(b) The amount of power that can be transferred onto the rock via crimping is meaningfully higher than open hand grip. If you can't crimp, certain types of moves will be impossible.

Are you sure crimping transfers more force? 

I HB with open, half crimp and full crimp and can always hang more weight with an open grip. Might be just me though, as I trained only open grip for years.

I do agree that some holds and moves require a crimp. 

Crimp puts more force straight onto the hold, which is sometimes vital.

Watching beginning climbers at the gyn, I often think they would be well off to begin some hang boarding. Their (understandable) finger weakness leads to hasty, careless movement, and ingrains poor technique, IMHO.

I'm new to training, and unfortunately this thread has me a little confused.

This is my current training routine:

Indoors: 15 min warm-up, 10-15 boulder problems (V2-V4) with 2-3 min in between, then three 15 min ARC sessions, rev wrist curls, arm-aid massage, ice elbows, stretch

Outdoors: solo TR laps on some random route in Eldo or the Flatirons or Clear Creek, rated 5.7-10a.  Often 7-12 laps.  Really enjoyable and sometimes pumpy day.

-----

Each week I do Indoorsx2 and Outdoorsx1.  It seems to be helping me get a good base, back into shape, and has low injury risk (as long as I don't throw in an 11b outdoors as I did yesterday).

Now I'm hearing that i should hangboard (which I'm fully open to), and read RCTM, or Logical Progression, or Horst's book, and have no idea what I should do.  I have RCTM, and I've read about half of it but it's pretty overwhelming.  I have enough money to hire Justen Sjong (10 mins from my house)... maybe that's the best option?

John RB wrote:

I'm new to training, and unfortunately this thread has me a little confused.

Well to answer your original question in the title of this thread, no, you cannot climb harder by lapping a bunch of easy stuff. In other words, you can't hope to climb a 5.12a by lapping a bunch of 5.10a forever. You need to progressively push your grade in order to improve the grade you climb. A grade pyramid is a good way to logically track your progress. It simply means that for the hardest route you ever redpoint (let's say 5.11b), you should climb two 5.11a, four 5.10d, and eight 5.10c. Usually people keep it to four levels because once you get pass level 5 it becomes a bit unmanageable. For the average climber without any bias toward redpointing or onsighting, we usually redpoint about 4 grades higher than our onsight. So the grade pyramid is also another way to make you focus on routes that are right at the limit of your onsight, all the way to your redpoint grade. If you can already onsight some 5.10c here and there, running laps on 5.7s is not likely going to improve your climbing other than maybe build a good endurance base.

Of course trying too hard carry the risk of injury. That why some of us suggested hangboarding, as a way to gradually strengthen the fingers (and tendons) in a controlled manner. Hangboarding is not absolutely necessary, you can definitely climb harder without doing any hangboard workouts. But considering your age and the fact you said you're injury prone, a conservative approach to hangboarding is a good way you keep your fingers healthy.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Are you sure crimping transfers more force? 

Force is more than scalar. It could be desribed as amount (scalar), point of application and direction. Benefits of crimping (vs open hand grip) are "deeper" point of contact and more parallel to the wall's plane direction of force vector. For the price of more stress to joints and ligaments.

Train with Justen. 

Train with Justen. 

Train with Justen. 

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Are you sure crimping transfers more force? 

I HB with open, half crimp and full crimp and can always hang more weight with an open grip. Might be just me though, as I trained only open grip for years.

I do agree that some holds and moves require a crimp. 

Crimp puts more force straight onto the hold, which is sometimes vital.

Watching beginning climbers at the gyn, I often think they would be well off to begin some hang boarding. Their (understandable) finger weakness leads to hasty, careless movement, and ingrains poor technique, IMHO.

Friction is another big factor. On bigger edges (IMO 1/2 inch and up) you get a lot more friction open handed whereas on small edges, the friction difference is less notable, and the shorter lever arm more than makes up the difference. You really see this on 8mm and smaller holds.

Also, +1 to the suggestion to train with Sjong. Dude has a nearly unparalleled understanding of movement and headspace, which are going to be the most significant gains for you at this point. I'd suggest going into a session with some specific goals if possible.

Jon Frisby wrote:

I love both of these books. However, I think for someone getting into training initially, Horst's Training for Climbing is the way to go. It covers the basics better than the others and is a more complete volume. It covers theory, session planning, season planning, and exercise categorization more robustly than either of these. This makes sense as the other two books are intended for more advanced (RCTM) and significantly more advanced (LP) audiences than T4C. RCTM should only be followed by a fairly narrow set of people, and nonlinear periodization can be great for new people, but I think reading Logical Progression before more basic training books will leave a beginner scratching their head.

To be honest I haven't taken the time to read any of Horst's books because the HIIT idea seemed worthless to me (I can't think of a time I've ever curled into two finger pockets like that) and he seems to recommend a lot of isolation strength training work. Is that the case in his new book and I've just judged him wrong based on old info he has put out on the internet? 

I think there was a time when he was trying to sell the HIIT strips hard, seems to have backed off a little. What do you mean by isolated strength training?

Jon Frisby wrote:

I think there was a time when he was trying to sell the HIIT strips hard, seems to have backed off a little. What do you mean by isolated strength training?

Doing a variety of exercises that target smaller specific muscle groups instead of say deadlifts or dips. When I looked through his site now though I didn't see that to be the case, maybe I just remember incorrectly from a podcast. 

I think Eric's thing has always been "here's everything, go ahead and pick." And it's evolved to giving some hierarchy on what to focus on, how to plan it, and what exercises are appropriate for various levels of climber. He includes such things as heavy pullups and deadlifts, and also has all of the major hangboard protocols. I think he's gotten onboard the complex lift train.

I've hired Justen once, and he's a great guy, but I would expect trying to follow RCTM would yield quicker results. By quicker I mean a letter grade every training cycle, it's never easy, every letter grade will be a battle. specifically, spending a month  doing the hangboard strength training should yield a letter grade of improvement. As you know, there's no climbing during that month.

Hangboard, you don't even have to do it for long.  5 - 10 seconds on - 10 seconds off  for three sets.  I added it to every other gym session for about a month or two and I notice my fingers are considerably stronger.  

Or for pump training I like to hang on the round open hand position with one hand while shaking the other out, feet on the wall in flag position. I keep switching hands without getting off until I pump out.  This one works out the forearms more than the tendons I think.

Yeah, I noticed in RCTM that during the hangboard cycle you don't get to climb at all (or do any other climbing training).  Seems pretty harsh.

A letter grade per cycle sounds pretty promising, but (1) I don't even know what grade I climb (it depends A TON on the style of climbing, in fact) and (2) surely this "letter grade per cycle" must slow down fairly quickly, or we'd be seeing 5.52d routes.

Ryan U. wrote:

Hangboard, you don't even have to do it for long.  5 - 10 seconds on - 10 seconds off  for three sets.  I added it to every other gym session for about a month or two and I notice my fingers are considerably stronger.  

Or for pump training I like to hang on the round open hand position with one hand while shaking the other out, feet on the wall in flag position. I keep switching hands without getting off until I pump out.  This one works out the forearms more than the tendons I think.

Ryan, for an exercise similar to, but maybe a little more specific than what you are doing in your second paragraph, I'd suggest laddering on campus rungs with feet on, if your gym has a strip of wood for feet below the board. Otherwise, a small stool works. Ladder up and down while twisting your hips through (and ideally stepping up and down). I go 1-3-match-2-1-match-3 for 30-40 seconds and rest about twice as long for 10 rounds.