Aided Free or Clean Free

Aid climbing has two different categories one being Clean Aid ..which mean not using pitons, birdbeaks etc that are bashed into the rock rather than using nuts and cams . . Free ascents of aid climbs seems to have escaped what is pretty much the obvious. Clean Free could refer to non inspection from above and placing protection on the lead... Aided Free is the inspection from above and preplacing protection with the addition of quick draws which seems to be quite acceptable these days with no mention made of this  when the "First Free Ascent "  is claimed  (described).It is  only noticed when a photo is shown with the pre placed pro above the leader. Pre placing protection on what  is being  described as a Trad Climb  is realistically now being modified  into  a Sport Climb. Aided Free for example would be added  to most if not all  FFA's on EL Capitan, and most other such climbs that are usually  over the 5.11 grade.. One can say most FFA would not be possible or would have no protection if it was not for the first aided ascent... Comments ? 

Just buy a plane ticket to Céüse, already.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I just love gridstone contributions to "Friday Whippers"! Nothing better than a hard core gridstone ethicist decking on his ass or banging his helmetless head against some good old rock.

Ever notice how they start those gritstone videos with a close up of pooled blood on the dirt ;)

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Ever notice how they start those gritstone videos with a close up of pooled blood on the dirt ;)

Not sure why you are banging on about Gritstone I agree its not much more than high boulder problems. . I am pointing at multi pitch climbs such as the El Cap etc  free ascents . Bye the way most of my 500+ FA's are in the US ... I have probably lived  longer in the US  than yourself.

No comments. 

Not sure why you are banging on about what other people do - they have nothing to prove to you. And you are certainly wrong, most of the hardest ascents have been done while placing gear (cobra crack, recovery drink etc). It is true that people have the gear preplaced on the rehearsal runs, but as soon as they are reasonably close to sending, people tend to strip all gear and start with all gear on the harness. Those who have done with preplaced gear are generally honest with it and state it as so in their reports. 

I have no done nearly as many FAs as you but the few I have done, have all been done ground-up onsight and clean without aid. Two best examples come to mind: 

stine in wonderland, 250m, 7b+, lofoten, Norway. An old aid route which we freed onsight, named after our friend stine who drove us to the hike-in point at 2am!

Spicy noodle and landjäger, 250m, 7b,  aiguilles des envers, Chamonix france. We spotted a line with binoculars from the hut and found out the face has no routes and went for it the same day, again freeing it ground-up onsight. 

This style is still practiced around the world everywhere and every day. Just because we are not banging on about it on some blog or feed, it doesn't mean it's a dying practice. Now if you choose to focus your rant on the ascents that you deem "poor style," well that's just too bad. Let's not even talk about grit. 

I have no problem with how others choose to do their routes, as long as they oblige by the local ethics. In the end, why you bang on about how others choose to challenge themselves against something as trivial as a piece of rock is....hmm. 

ahhh Monday mornings on mp....  

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

If it is a hard gear FA these days people seem to assume the gear was pre placed unless otherwise noted. The downside of this practice is that it trickels down to the more normal grades with the attitude of if they can do why not me.  This might lead to a situation where a 2nd ascent party may find a climb to be a bit more spicy than anticipated ;)   

I don't know many that assumes that, nor that is the standard MO for hard gear FAs. It is true that people don't seem to distinguish pre-placing a draw to a piece of "fixed" pro, but removable protection should still be placed on lead. Regardless, onsighting many hard gear routes are much more spicy than they are typically (safety) rated, especially if it involves fairly blind placements overhead, and this had bothered me for quite a long time.

reboot wrote:

I don't know many that assumes that, nor that is the standard MO for hard gear FAs. It is true that people don't seem to distinguish pre-placing a draw to a piece of "fixed" pro, but removable protection should still be placed on lead. Regardless, onsighting many hard gear routes are much more spicy than they are typically (safety) rated, especially if it involves fairly blind placements overhead, and this had bothered me for quite a long time.

IIRC both Lynn Hill and Jorg Verhoeven pre placed gear for the great roof. I'm assuming more so because it was small/finnicky and impossible to inspect on lead. Did Caldwell and Rodden place their gear on lead for that pitch? 

Paul not picking on you just commenting that it is my understanding that a lot of the rules we have governing gear climbing have origins in gritstone. perhaps this is just my impression comming from the north east. henry went to the UK and then came back with a buch of rules. at least that is the impression a lot of us have here. 

I certainly am no expert on hard trad. Just read the articles and look at the photos. Most of the time when you look closely you see draws hanging up there. you rarely read spray about pre placeing gear but do read spray about not pre placeing the gear as if that is something special and not the norm..

Nick Drake wrote:

IIRC both Lynn Hill and Jorg Verhoeven pre placed gear for the great roof. I'm assuming more so because it was small/finnicky and impossible to inspect on lead. Did Caldwell and Rodden place their gear on lead for that pitch? 

So the nose has only been sport lead never trad lead?

ViperScale wrote:

So the nose has only been sport lead never trad lead?

(Free variation of) the Nose is also chipped, I'd think that would be more of an outrage than brown pointing vs red pointing.

reboot wrote:

(Free variation of) the Nose is also chipped, I'd think that would be more of an outrage than brown pointing vs red pointing.

If aid climbing with a hammer is chipping, then pretty much all of El Cap is chipped.

reboot wrote:

(Free variation of) the Nose is also chipped, I'd think that would be more of an outrage than brown pointing vs red pointing.

caesar.salad wrote:

If aid climbing with a hammer is chipping, then pretty much all of El Cap is chipped.

The Jardine Traverse, which eliminates the King Swing (and totally avoids Texas and Boot flakes), is the free alternative that was not previously aided. Ray basically used the chisel to enhance and enlarge holds, creating a 12b chipped passage, ostensibly because "it would never go free otherwise." Lynn feels that in its unaltered state, it probably would have been 12d-ish.

ViperScale wrote:

So the nose has only been sport lead never trad lead?

Not by my definition, but based on all the other threads on here lately some people would call it "sport" whether gear was placed on lead or not. 

Not as old or as experienced as Paul, but have been to a few rodeos.  That being said, I just want to go off on my own rant!  What the hell ever happened to...golden rule, don't say anything if you can't say anything nice (yo mamma told you that), respect you elders, and so on!  Paul has done enough to warrant your respect!  He asked a non snarky question and got too many snarky responses.  How about just a, "this is how I see it Paul" with out the MP bs?