Bolting a TR, would you do it and why?

Tradiban wrote:

Nice history lesson. The route has been climbed, so it's been contributed to the community already. Why is bolting it an additional contribution?

How does TRing something contribute anything to the climbing community? Cleaning a route is a contribution. Publishing or sharing information can be a contribution. Bolting, if done in accordance with local ethics and landowner wishes is a contribution. Just going out and toproping something doesn't contribute anything. If you enjoy climbing it--great--go ahead and toprope it, but don't pretend your toprope is a contribution to the community.

Bryce Adamson wrote:

How does TRing something contribute anything to the climbing community? Cleaning a route is a contribution. Publishing or sharing information can be a contribution. Bolting, if done in accordance with local ethics and landowner wishes is a contribution. Just going out and toproping something doesn't contribute anything. If you enjoy climbing it--great--go ahead and toprope it, but don't pretend your toprope is a contribution to the community.

Huh? A top rope is a route, "work" in involved, to say it's not a contribution is insane!

Bryce Adamson wrote:

How does TRing something contribute anything to the climbing community? Cleaning a route is a contribution. Publishing or sharing information can be a contribution. Bolting, if done in accordance with local ethics and landowner wishes is a contribution. Just going out and toproping something doesn't contribute anything. If you enjoy climbing it--great--go ahead and toprope it, but don't pretend your toprope is a contribution to the community.

Well yes, it very much depends on how much work that TR entails.

If you have to place anchors and clean it (both pretty likely) then it is a viable FA.

Someone should not feel free to come bolt it and claim it as their FA.

And like I posted previously, if it is not really worthy of bolting for a lead it should especially be left alone.

Nick Drake wrote:

Never done this on TR.

So you are saying you're a "Faller" and not a "Climber"?

T Roper wrote:

I had to walk 5 miles through 10ft of snow just to get to school every day bitd . 

Seriously, you just gave everyone a great reason to bolt TR climbs!

Except it isn't an area where bolting is allowed so that's out.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:Top rope is never a legit FA.

Nonsense (and as if clipping bolts is much more of a challenge - oh, you can't hang your way up an overhanging TR, you're either climbing or flying).

Tradiban wrote:

So you are saying you're a "Faller" and not a "Climber"?

I'm saying if you can't "fall" you're not "climbing"

Nick Drake wrote:

I'm saying if you can't "fall" you're not "climbing"

That's just ego stroking.

Healyje wrote:

Except it isn't an area where bolting is allowed so that's out.

Nonsense (and as if clipping bolts is much more of a challenge - oh, you can't hang your way up an overhanging TR, you're either climbing or flying).

It may not be harder but it's better style. I don't see anything wrong with drawing a line as to what is good enough style to be considered an FA (and therefore authoritative)

Marc801 C wrote:

That's just ego stroking.

That depends on the motivation and reasoning. In the context of "valid FA" being discussed in this thread I would agree, that's ego stroking. 

In terms of *my* personal climbing I feel that the clarity and focus when leading does make for a different experience than leading. It doesn't matter if it's a well protected easy sport route or red pointing near the limit, climbing on TR is just not as rich of an experience. Personally I would consider top roping akin to mountaineering via siege tactics and leading to be climbing in alpine style. I wouldn't be nearly as satisfied using a bunch of fixed lines to climb a peak in a giant party as I would to set off with a light pack that forced my partner and I to commit. 

That's just my personal feeling though about what I want out of climbing. No one else has to subscribe to my standards nor care what they are, because what I want out of my own climbing experience should have no bearing on anyone else. 

Nick Drake wrote:

That depends on the motivation and reasoning. In the context of "valid FA" being discussed in this thread I would agree, that's ego stroking. 

In terms of *my* personal climbing I feel that the clarity and focus when leading does make for a different experience than leading. It doesn't matter if it's a well protected easy sport route or red pointing near the limit, climbing on TR is just not as rich of an experience. Personally I would consider top roping akin to mountaineering via siege tactics and leading to be climbing in alpine style. I wouldn't be nearly as satisfied using a bunch of fixed lines to climb a peak in a giant party as I would to set off with a light pack that forced my partner and I to commit. 

That's just my personal feeling though about what I want out of climbing. No one else has to subscribe to my standards nor care what they are, because what I want out of my own climbing experience should have no bearing on anyone else. 

I get that, but it's all about YOU, when putting bolts on a TR has been argued that it's for the community.

The only reason to sport bolt it seems is because the route is overhanging or the top is inaccessable. There's plenty of that type of rock out there so it seems only natural to bolt something but does it serve a purpose besides for the personal?

If top ropes were Fa's what is the point.??? might was well just throw out all the rules and say whatever.. I was going to get up there and lead that but Fck it i will just claim the FA anyways...

Most old routes in previously TR areas get labeled with something like "FA: Oldguy McHardnuts (TR), Gumby Boltsprayer (Lead)". What's wrong with that? One guy identified that the route was worth climbing and did it first, and maybe cleaned it, and another guy was the first to lead it. Both get credit for what they did.

I'd say, in general, that TRs are worth bolting unless there's a compelling reason not to. If it's a crappy route, or if bolting is banned, or if bolting will interfere with nearby trad climbs, or if it's small enough to be a reasonable highball, don't bolt it. If none of those apply? Go for it! Most people prefer lead to TR.

Tradiban wrote:

I get that, but it's all about YOU, when putting bolts on a TR has been argued that it's for the community.

The only reason to sport bolt it seems is because the route is overhanging or the top is inaccessable. There's plenty of that type of rock out there so it seems only natural to bolt something but does it serve a purpose besides for the personal?

I'm a member of the community, I prefer to be on lead whether it be plugging gear or clipping bolts. There are a great number of other climbers who feel the same. So yes when that TR route is bolted it is doing something for the community, as the portion who thinks similarly will get on a line they may have otherwise passed by.

Also in the PNW that is important because routes need a certain amount of traffic so they aren't simply overtaken with moss/lichen. If it's not climbed and fades into obscurity you're looking at a lot of work to get things back into any reasonable shape for climbing.

Tradiban wrote:

Huh? A top rope is a route, "work" in involved, to say it's not a contribution is insane!

Haha! I was thinking the same thing about you. Ckersh and Nick Drake get the logic right, though.

Nick Drake wrote:

I'm a member of the community, I prefer to be on lead whether it be plugging gear or clipping bolts. There are a great number of other climbers who feel the same. So yes when that TR route is bolted it is doing something for the community, as the portion who thinks similarly will get on a line they may have otherwise passed by.

Also in the PNW that is important because routes need a certain amount of traffic so they aren't simply overtaken with moss/lichen. If it's not climbed and fades into obscurity you're looking at a lot of work to get things back into any reasonable shape for climbing.

Your preference is the same as your ego. Why is a TR not good enough for you? What do you have to prove and to whom?

Bryce Adamson wrote:

How does TRing something contribute anything to the climbing community? Cleaning a route is a contribution. Publishing or sharing information can be a contribution. Bolting, if done in accordance with local ethics and landowner wishes is a contribution. Just going out and toproping something doesn't contribute anything. If you enjoy climbing it--great--go ahead and toprope it, but don't pretend your toprope is a contribution to the community.

"Contribution to the community"??? Dude WTF? Fuck the 'community'. Climbing is not a social sport to me, I climb to get the fuck away from the 'community'. And all the FA's I've put up I've put up because I got absolutely obsessed about a line and nowhere in that did I have the slightest hint of a rumination about what it might mean for anyone else let alone the frigging 'community'. I don't climb for other people, don't care if anyone else climbs my routes, and in fact explicitly asked that they be left out of the guide. Did I already say fuck the community?

Nick Drake wrote:

I'm a member of the community... TR route is bolted it is doing something for the community....

A sport climbing 'community' I suppose - they do typically have a rapacious appetite for turning unbolted rock into the clip joints of the moment.

T Roper wrote:

well that does not supprise me..  

Healyje wrote:

To do what I can to help keep people from killing themselves and each other and to help with trad climbing and rope soloing.

However, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with the notion of community-associated rocks, community-climbing, developing for the community (now there's an ego delusion), or (the very worst) contributing to the community.

So every person who spends their time and money cleaning and bolting is egotistical huh? I could agree that a few are but all of them? I think you are delusional and talking out of your ass since you have stated numerous times you have never spent any time at these crags around "these people". 

Maybe stick to the trad or beginning climber forums?