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Is it possible to protect a flaring roof crack?

Original Post
Alex R · · Golden · Joined May 2015 · Points: 227

Lets say the flare opens at an angle of 14.5 degrees directly downwards. This is wide enough that a c4 will roll right out of its placement putting zero outward force on the rock. Is there some technique or piece of pro that has a chance of working in such a situation? Has anyone encountered a situation where something like this was the only option for protection? Did you manage to protect it?

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140

I don't personally use Totem cams (I find them too bulky), but in theory, they should be able to hold in more open downward facing flares (since their camming angle is around 20deg), although they require a pretty high coefficient of friction with the rock to do so (>0.3 or so)...

BTW: a c4 will theoretically have zero holding power if the flare angle is 29deg (2*camming angle), not 14.5, but perhaps you mean half-angle...

All the math is here: http://totem.totemmt.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IndarEbazpena.pdf 

Alex R · · Golden · Joined May 2015 · Points: 227

That PDF is not publicly accessible.

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Alex R wrote:

Lets say the flare opens at an angle of 14.5 degrees directly downwards. This is wide enough that a c4 will roll right out of its placement putting zero outward force on the rock. Is there some technique or piece of pro that has a chance of working in such a situation? Has anyone encountered a situation where something like this was the only option for protection? Did you manage to protect it?

A well placed bolt would work...

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140
Alex R wrote:

That PDF is not publicly accessible.

The link works for me...

Double J · · Sandy, UT · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 3,931

Can you pound in an angle piton to match the size? Otherwise yes, what Brian in SLC said above. 

Alex R · · Golden · Joined May 2015 · Points: 227
Eric and Lucie wrote:

The link works for me...

I was able to search the pdf name and find this link that does work:

www.totemcams.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IndarEbazpena.pdf

Alex R · · Golden · Joined May 2015 · Points: 227

Is it possible opposing two offset cams could work when the crack is to flaring for a totem? This would multiply the forces on the cams, so it would depend on how angled the offsets could be in there placement. I am not at all experienced with making placements in flares so I may be missing something. And yes I know that this set up involves using an American death triangle which strongly implies that the next comment will contain the phrase "You're gonna die."

Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635

Whenever a crack is flairing outward, I like to place a lot of pieces.  15 pieces of flair are a good minimum, but sometimes I like to go up to maybe 37 pieces of flair, and we should all encourage this.

Mark Says · · Basalt, CO · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 395
Pnelson wrote:

Whenever a crack is flairing outward, I like to place a lot of pieces.  15 pieces of flair are a good minimum, but sometimes I like to go up to maybe 37 pieces of flair, and we should all encourage this.

I'm going to need you to go ahead and place a few more pieces. Yeah... that'd be great.

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140
Alex R wrote:

Is it possible opposing two offset cams could work when the crack is to flaring for a totem? This would multiply the forces on the cams, so it would depend on how angled the offsets could be in there placement. I am not at all experienced with making placements in flares so I may be missing something. And yes I know that this set up involves using an American death triangle which strongly implies that the next comment will contain the phrase "You're gonna die."

Really interesting idea I think.  I would not use a triangle as you show since this would further increase the load on the cams due to pulley action; In other words, I'd rather clip around both strands of the triangle;  no need for redundancy anyway... if one cam blows, the whole thing is toast!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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