First Female Ascent. Should this be an actual thing?

John Barritt wrote:

Yeah, that stupid fence of yours and those dang boxes got my butt in a wringer. Now I know where you were when I needed you to womansplain me out of this....... ;) I thought you were just watching me dig a hole with the shovel you gave me. 

I got the equity thing for sure Kay, (and I liked your analogy, not that it in any way needed my approval). I take people at face value, gender (etc.) has never factored into the character equation for me. JB

You turned a post digger into a shovel! We were trying to build a bridge!

And I definitely think a via feratta on the dawn wall might be cool, ya know, in a effort for equity in climbing....

EDIT: The whole host of the rest of everything in this forum, doesn't really need commenting on. The last five pages...I think Helen summed it up pretty well: it depends. but if its at the top of the sport, its noteworthy. 

Circle jerks are more fun when they're co-ed. But most of us prefer echochambers...

Downtownt Kay wrote:

And I definitely think a via feratta on the dawn wall might be cool, ya know, in a effort for equity in climbing....

That's funny! I'm an Okie, so I'm down as long as it has some scary "via feratta style" runouts......... ;)

PS That Erik Sloan guy is probably drilling one right now.......... ;)

Anonymous wrote:

Equality to equity to liberation; where the fence is torn down. What does that look like in climbing FA? 

thats a great question! i dont know.
i think we wont really know until things shift majorly in our world in general.*

someone touched on reasons there is a disparity in female FAs and route development in general, and many of their reasons are true, and there are other reasons too. like barrier to entry. the confidence gap (obviously not true across the board-but it is a real thing in general). the sometimes exhausting culture of even the most well-meaning and best of friends in the climbing community....

*my opinion on liberation in general has less to do with climbing and more to do with the rethinking of original 'sin'  aka sex and the idea that our bodies are shameful but thats a whole different post for a whole different day, on a whole different forum...

Robert Michael wrote:

I just want to point out it's obvious that men are superior to women simply because of how we piss.

Men stand up; women sit down.

This is because men are emotionally stable and can control themselves while women are not and thus must sit lest they spray urine all over the place.

The obvious proof of this is easily found at any interstate rest area, where you never find piss splattered all over the walls, floors, and toilet seats in the men's rooms.

Equality is only 10 bucks tho. ;)

https://go-girl.com 

Emil Briggs wrote:

My daughter got the first ascent of a route about 2 years ago. She has enjoyed making teasing comments about the FMA too but she didn't bolt it. It was a moderate route bolted by someone else. I know a lot of guys who seem to enjoy putting up new moderate routes but  very few women who do the same but I don't know why this should be the case. Slightly off topic I think we met around 10 years ago at the New and chatted about our kids. My daughter was not that interested in climbing back then but she sure is now.

Hi Emil! Glad to hear that your daughter is enjoying climbing now.

as to why there aren't more female bolters/developers... Multiple reasons for it, ranging from women have less free time, to there are additional safety considerations for women bush whacking alone in the remote locations, to the fact that the bolting is a physically demanding hard work. 

Just couple points off the top of my head, by no means comprehensive. 

I do think it would eventually change. There is also a time lag. The ratio of men/women in climbing is much closer to 1:1 now (though still not quite), but bolters/route delepers are people who started climbing many years ago, not yesterday. If you look at the situation 10-15 years ago, there were a lot fewer women climbers back then. I think in 10-15 years, when this generation if new climbers matures, there will be more women bolters, just like there are more women bolters now than there were 20 years ago...

Dylan B. wrote:

Oh for fucks sake.

Did you really mean to write that, or was it a goof?

I dunno if it was a goof, bu tI know in order to eliminate context, it takes deliberate action, so I guess I'll have to presume you did that on purpose.
And it certainly reads differently once you did that to the 'quote.'

I think this particular post in question comes down to the difference between 'same' and 'equal' and lack of semantic sense.
But perhaps not.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Ladies, how about instead of being condescending and dismissive of the conversation you take the time to be patient and explain it? 

You thought this issue was going to be resolved in a single conversation? Wrong. You will eventually get equality but it will take time and patience. Maybe you shouldnt have to, but women's rights needs champions, not sarcastic brats. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

*At MP discussion table*

On FFFA's -

Men: okay explain what you mean and how this works?  We have every detail of a redpoint vs pink point vs send vs flash vs FFA vs FA  defined so lets discuss where this fits in.

Women: wow, your so ignorant I cant believe you

Men who 'get it': Wow I cant believe these men could even ask people to explain. How dare they question our new system. Insert condecending comment.

Look, if all we get is sarcasm and eyerolling when we ask questions then why do you think anything would change? Yall are going to have to explain this shit multiple times to multiple people. If that is too daunting then you don’t want it that bad.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

And instead of changing it for the better you just complain and spread negativity, nice!

You really have a chip on your shoulder don't you!

Edit - you know what, i shouldnt be using sarcasm, ill tell you straight. You need to be the change you want to see in the world. If you want it fixed accept the burden for yourself. No one wants to hear any complaining on here or anywhere. I havent seen you post one solution, positive comment, or idea in this thread. All you have added to the discussion is negativity.

You've made this similar comment at least several times in this thread, and if memory serves (I could be wrong) in other similar threads as well, so I thought I'd respond to this one. 

It's not any woman's job to educate the misogyny out of any given man or men in general. If she is unwilling and/or unable to do this particular form of (unpaid, often unappreciated, perhaps impossible, and frankly exhausting) emotional labor, she doesn't forfeit her right to complain about the issue, and she doesn't have to be patient about it either. 

Here's an analogy (not an equivalency, I'm not saying these two things are an equivalent, it's simply an illustration): If someone punches you in the face, you can be mad about it and call them out for it, and yet you have no obligation to sit them down and share an ethics lesson on why punching is wrong, convince them it's wrong, and train them in alternative non-violent conflict resolution strategies. Not being willing or able to do this doesn't mean punching is ok, or that you can't still be mad about getting punched. 

Hey it's great if anyone, man or woman, is willing to take the time to share their point of view, most especially when those are intelligent, reasoned, and backed up by more than their own personal anecdotal experience - and when they do we should all be appreciative and take the opportunity to learn what we can. But you don't need to demand that from anyone. "If you can't explain it to me adequately then you must not really have anything to be upset about" or similar is not productive. A productive step would be to take some responsibility for your own education - seek out some sources (there are many well-written ones readily available for you!) ask questions, engage in discussions - but don't dismiss someone for not being patient enough or not explaining well enough. Also "be the change you wish to see in the world" (an often misattributed quote taken out of context) in relation to this discussion might mean, for example, if you wish everyone would treat each other with respect, start by treating others with respect - it doesn't mean accepting the burden of others' behavior for yourself. 

Now, I'm not perfect and neither is text-only communication via internet - so it's possible I've misconstrued your intended message here. If I have, then I apologize - and please take it for nothing more than evidence that you have spoken in a manner that may be misconstrued - either way a good learning opportunity. 

Hey Nick, does she develop routes also? Just curious!

Best, OLH

Em Cos wrote:

Here's an analogy (not an equivalency, I'm not saying these two things are an equivalent, it's simply an illustration): If someone punches you in the face, you can be mad about it and call them out for it, and yet you have no obligation to sit them down and share an ethics lesson on why punching is wrong, convince them it's wrong, and train them in alternative non-violent conflict resolution strategies. Not being willing or able to do this doesn't mean punching is ok, or that you can't still be mad about getting punched. 

That's great from a fairness POV. BUT practically, only one party is getting punched in the face, not the puncher and not any bystanders. And if I was a bystander, I probably will NOT be inclined to help if the person getting punched doesn't do something to address the situation. IMO, it's absolutely reasonable to say if all you do against injustice toward you is getting mad, you don't really care enough.

That's life.

reboot wrote:

That's great from a fairness POV. BUT practically, only one party is getting punched in the face, not the puncher and not any bystanders. And if I was a bystander, I probably will NOT be inclined to help if the person getting punched doesn't do something to address the situation. IMO, it's absolutely reasonable to say if all you do against injustice toward you is getting mad, you don't really care enough.

That's life.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I'm not sure you can place a value judgment on how much someone cares based on whether they react with frustration, sadness, withdrawal, anger, or engaging in patient educational discourse. Further, deciding that you don't have to concern yourself with injustice that you witness because in your subjective judgment the recipient of said injustice doesn't care "enough", (whatever "enough" means to you), is a bit of a cop out. 

Put another way, if a bystander doesn't feel the need to do anything about witnessing someone punched in the face, simply because they are not currently being punched themselves, then that's their choice but they may have to accept that they are part of the problem. 

Em Cos wrote:

Put another way, if a bystander doesn't feel the need to do anything about witnessing someone punched in the face, simply because they are not currently being punched themselves, then that's their choice but they may have to accept that they are part of the problem. 

What I'm saying is I'm much less willing to help those who don't help themselves. 

I don't aspire to live up to be a saint and I've got enough problems on my own. I can live with that, and I bet most people can too.

reboot wrote:

That's great from a fairness POV. BUT practically, only one party is getting punched in the face, not the puncher and not any bystanders. And if I was a bystander, I probably will NOT be inclined to help if the person getting punched doesn't do something to address the situation. IMO, it's absolutely reasonable to say if all you do against injustice toward you is getting mad, you don't really care enough.

Yes, at times, and besides...
Punch is one thing - it's intentional.
Stepping on toes is another - it's not.  One might not even be aware that it has occurred or when or how.

If the sexism one encounters is subtle enough and acculturated, those who are "calling out" might have some explaining to do if they want to effect change.
Otherwise, in some instances, we're back to that old "If you don't know what you did wrong, I'm not going to waste my time telling you!"

For my own part, I believe that the 'fatigue' rhetoric evolved in part at least to shut down discussion.  "Well, you are wrong, and you are so wrong that I am so tired of it that I am not going to explain it to you, so you have to just accept your guilt."    One does not have to frame out the injustice done them that way, they can just declare it and be outraged that anyone dare ask what the problem is.

Don't mistake this for me saying there are not problems.  There are.  It's clear enough.  But not everything is a problem.

I appreciate this thread hasn't been about elite female climbers for a bit now.  And that's cool: folks learning to be good human beings is definitely more important.  

But I got the site notification that the thread was still going on, and got curious about stuff from pages back.  Found these pages of interest, might be for others checking in again for the same reason.

http://www.mensjournal.com/adventure/articles/why-teenage-girls-are-dominating-climbing-w203154

https://www.8a.nu/ (especially the Junior ranking)

Helen, we do it as a team. I put the shiny things in, usualy on lead and Isa usually gets the FFA....

Tony B wrote:

Yes, at times, and besides...
Punch is one thing - it's intentional.
Stepping on toes is another - it's not.  One might not even be aware that it has occurred or when or how.

If the sexism one encounters is subtle enough and acculturated, those who are "calling out" might have some explaining to do if they want to effect change.
Otherwise, in some instances, we're back to that old "If you don't know what you did wrong, I'm not going to waste my time telling you!"

For my own part, I believe that the 'fatigue' rhetoric evolved in part at least to shut down discussion.  "Well, you are wrong, and you are so wrong that I am so tired of it that I am not going to explain it to you, so you have to just accept your guilt."    One does not have to frame out the injustice done them that way, they can just declare it and be outraged that anyone dare ask what the problem is.

Don't mistake this for me saying there are not problems.  There are.  It's clear enough.  But not everything is a problem.

Not everything is a problem, and we don't live in the black and white world of the internet. We live in the semantics world of life where things and actions are confusing. Ya know, for instance, i've never felt uncomfortable in a climbing gym, and frankly, the only asking someone out i've encountered, was me asking someone else. (I got turned down by the way :( )

But I've been in LIFE, where just yesterday being belligerently asked about where the 'sir' in my life is, is not only annoying its confusing. (and condescending when you ask a 27 year old woman where her dad is, in a effort to find out if i have a boyfriend. alcohol is a helluva drug)...

Do I lie so this man leaves me alone?-I'm just here to camp. Do I lie for my own safety?-next time he sees my van he knows im alone?
I dont want to lie, my value does not revolve around the men in my life, and this man doesn't deserve my time. But I dont want to be honest for safety. All this goes through my head as i evaluate the current situation of seconds in which to respond and how to do it. *if you're curious yesterday the reply was, 'what the fuck does that have to do with anything?' before I clambered into the diesel kitten drove away.

If it happens in life, sometimes it happens at the crag. We climb hard for girls(-lol, no i don't. hella girls climb waaaaay harder than me). I drive well (for a girl), thanks guy at work. Strong for a girl-most non-climbers. We owe the world children (cool story grandpa). Hey girl, you're cute. *ignored* alright bitch, then keep walking-everyone ever that cat-called me on the streets in the bay when I was growing up.
 Its just stuff we deal with on the daily and then it adds up. The emotional labor many women bear is feeling like we have to give the time and if we're too aggressive we're bitches and if we're too nice we're dumb, and if we're too angry or aggro.... and the list goes on.
That's not to say men aren't confused too. So she had chalk on her face and you were gonna tell her, but she was rolling her eyes at you because she thought you were staring for other reasons. And you're upset cuz you got misunderstood. (someone ran when I mentioned patriarchy, but i swear it fucks all of us up.)

So when some things are explained and they are replied to with, 'well i've never seen it happen, so it must not be happening.' It can be exhausting to offer the same explanation over and over. Especially on a forum, where someone can go to a previous page and reread what someone else said. AND where you know you'll get picked apart by the wolves and have to do it again.

There are multiple reasons for this. The changing the minds of my bros at my local crag is taking way long (small victories, like calling someone a pussy in front of me. then he looked at me again and said, yeah, i know vaginas are strong and awesome and take beatings-he was being a wimp)...
 But trying to change the minds of strangers on the internet without the love and established connections i have with my bros is damn near impossible.

Fatigue is a VERY real thing. Like uber super ultra mega real. To the point where I dont even engage anymore in most circumstances.... Yet here I am!
 Still circle-jerking with yall...and really, co-ed is more fun.

Don't get too rowdy over the weekend though cuz i dont know if i can afford to reply to five or more pages when I get back from actually climbing.

Downtownt Kay wrote:

Not everything is a problem, and we don't live in the black and white world of the internet. We live in the semantics world of life where things and actions are confusing. Ya know, for instance, i've never felt uncomfortable in a climbing gym, and frankly, the only asking someone out i've encountered, was me asking someone else. (I got turned down by the way :( )

But I've been in LIFE, where just yesterday being belligerently asked about where the 'sir' in my life is, is not only annoying its confusing. (and condescending when you ask a 27 year old woman where her dad is, in a effort to find out if i have a boyfriend. alcohol is a helluva drug)...

Do I lie so this man leaves me alone?-I'm just here to camp. Do I lie for my own safety?-next time he sees my van he knows im alone?
I dont want to lie, my value does not revolve around the men in my life, and this man doesn't deserve my time. But I dont want to be honest for safety. All this goes through my head as i evaluate the current situation of seconds in which to respond and how to do it. *if you're curious yesterday the reply was, 'what the fuck does that have to do with anything?' before I clambered into the diesel kitten drove away.

If it happens in life, sometimes it happens at the crag. We climb hard for girls(-lol, no i don't. hella girls climb waaaaay harder than me). I drive well (for a girl), thanks guy at work. Strong for a girl-most non-climbers. We owe the world children (cool story grandpa). Hey girl, you're cute. *ignored* alright bitch, then keep walking-everyone ever that cat-called me on the streets in the bay when I was growing up.
 Its just stuff we deal with on the daily and then it adds up. The emotional labor many women bear is feeling like we have to give the time and if we're too aggressive we're bitches and if we're too nice we're dumb, and if we're too angry or aggro.... and the list goes on.
That's not to say men aren't confused too. So she had chalk on her face and you were gonna tell her, but she was rolling her eyes at you because she thought you were staring for other reasons. And you're upset cuz you got misunderstood. (someone ran when I mentioned patriarchy, but i swear it fucks all of us up.)

So when some things are explained and they are replied to with, 'well i've never seen it happen, so it must not be happening.' It can be exhausting to offer the same explanation over and over. Especially on a forum, where someone can go to a previous page and reread what someone else said. AND where you know you'll get picked apart by the wolves and have to do it again.

There are multiple reasons for this. The changing the minds of my bros at my local crag is taking way long (small victories, like calling someone a pussy in front of me. then he looked at me again and said, yeah, i know vaginas are strong and awesome and take beatings-he was being a wimp)...
 But trying to change the minds of strangers on the internet without the love and established connections i have with my bros is damn near impossible.

Fatigue is a VERY real thing. Like uber super ultra mega real. To the point where I dont even engage anymore in most circumstances.... Yet here I am!
 Still circle-jerking with yall...and really, co-ed is more fun.

Don't get too rowdy over the weekend though cuz i dont know if i can afford to reply to five or more pages when I get back from actually climbing.

This. 

Now multiply by decades, and add in far worse.

The far worse, most of us can agree on. Almost. The rest? This truly adds up and gets tiring.

I move loads for part of my job, and am fast and smooth at it. I know they are just being thoughtful, but I'm asked/told just about daily "need any help/let me help you" often while the guys hands are already trying to grab something and interfering with my work. Sometimes the "no thank you" has to be pretty forceful. I never get this from women, ever.

The elderly ladies who watch me unloading the same loads onto tables? "You should get a young man to help you". Then, I turn and ask these awesome women, "how many of you have ever bucked a hay bale?" Most raise their hands, and laugh.

Yeah. It's changed a lot! Makes me laugh!

BTW, if you know any ninety year olds, get them talking about their lives sometime. They quietly did amazing things.

Best, OLH

reboot wrote:

That's great from a fairness POV. BUT practically, only one party is getting punched in the face, not the puncher and not any bystanders. And if I was a bystander, I probably will NOT be inclined to help if the person getting punched doesn't do something to address the situation. IMO, it's absolutely reasonable to say if all you do against injustice toward you is getting mad, you don't really care enough.

That's life.

I'm incredulous. Person getting punched curls into a ball and you're like "Well nope! They must not dislike being punched enough to do something about it".  

Downtownt Kay wrote:

Do I lie so this man leaves me alone?-I'm just here to camp. Do I lie for my own safety?-next time he sees my van he knows im alone?
I dont want to lie, my value does not revolve around the men in my life, and this man doesn't deserve my time. But I dont want to be honest for safety. All this goes through my head as i evaluate the current situation of seconds in which to respond and how to do it. *if you're curious yesterday the reply was, 'what the fuck does that have to do with anything?' before I clambered into the diesel kitten drove away.

Fatigue is a VERY real thing. Like uber super ultra mega real. To the point where I dont even engage anymore in most circumstances.... Yet here I am!
 Still circle-jerking with yall...and really, co-ed is more fun.

Kat, one of my climbing partners, recently had an incident where a ranger asked her, 'Where is Your Husband?' She responded 'I don't have one of those, but I do have one of these." And handed him her backcountry permit. Yep.  That happened.  My guess is that the guy was going to give her the business about her dog off leash and was more comfortable in conflict with a guy than with her (she's tiny), which is a second form of sexism...  Anyway, he gave her a warning and left. (Perhaps a 3rd sexism - would a dude have gotten a ticket?)
I suggested that she go ahead and call the guy in to report it to his supervisor 'if for no other reason, to point out what that looks and sounds like, so he does not repeat the mistake.'

And I'm sure that the 'fatigue' is a real thing.  But I notice the plantifs who bring it up 'to get done' more when the assertion they are making is pretty weak.  Kind of like "oh, you know what you did."  And I've seen it used, in my assessment, as a way to leverage a weak argument.

On the other hand, you are making a pretty good case for things and perhaps it will help people wrap their thoughts around what it's like on the other side of the experience.  And about how we should watch our assumptions.

In the super market last night I was tryign to weigh a mellon.  The hanging scales are about 5' up.  I put the mellon in left handed and it slipped - there was  abang, the whole thing shook and rattled, and a woman 30 feet way loudly exclaimed 'Gssshhhesh! and gave me a disgusted look.
"Sorry if I have disturbed your shopping, I can't palm this, I'm right handed, and I cant lift that hand above my navel because I tore two tendons out of my rotator cuff.  I'll be getting the surgery soon." (As I struggeled to get the mellon back out of the weight basket clumsily.
She shook her head and rolled her eyes at me and walked away with a "hmmmph!"

I wonder what her presumption was that made my clumsiness so contemptible?  I have no idea.  I guess she wanted to remain offended.  Could have been a dude.  I'm not saying it was sexism, I'm just saying that some people are easily offended for no reason.

The FA is so muddled anyway, perhaps we should do away with the term entirely? Why do we need to know who the FA is? It seems only to serve the ego.