Cordelette knots

Seth Jones wrote: knotting the loose ends prevents them from slipping through the masterpoint knot.

I think the question was based on the assumption this wouldn't happen. Aka the knot is "stable" and the ends wont slip enough to untie when loaded.

Most likely this was included in the presentation because there wasn't any specific evidence to support the above assumption, and better safe than sorry.

ROC wrote:Flat overhand. Quick. Easily tied and untied. You don't always need or want your cord in a loop.

+1 for the flat overhand!

Brian L. wrote: Most likely this was included in the presentation because there wasn't any specific evidence to support the above assumption, and better safe than sorry.

that's what I figured. I wasn't sure if I'm missing anything here. thanks for the response.

I like the adjustable aspect of the "no knot" method. Has anybody tested it with 5mm Titan cord? Wondering if there's any slippage concern.

Ernest W wrote:I like the adjustable aspect of the "no knot" method. Has anybody tested it with 5mm Titan cord? Wondering if there's any slippage concern.

not sure what titan cord is but i'm using 5.5mm aramid cord made by beal. works like a charm.

The old video seems to have been taken off of YouTube so I made one myself. Please see link below:

https://youtu.be/uTiII7cpgk4

If I'm tying your typical 3 piece trad anchor with a figure-8 master point then I'll use a flat overhand with long tails.  Otherwise, I tend to use the Flemish bend since it's easier to untie. 

Use a double or triple fisherman's if you want your knot to become welded and your cordalette stuck in a permanent loop, which will need to be retired earlier as this will weaken the cord at the knot faster over time than re-tying it on the regular.

Otherwise keep your cordalette un-knotted when on your harness and tie a simple flat overhand (or flemish bend aka figure 8 follow through DO NOT USE A FLAT 8) when you need it to be in a loop. This second method also makes it easier to use it as an equalette if you need to set up your anchor that way for any reason. Also keeping your cordalette un-knotted means it is easily ready for you to use in a self rescue situation, while it is not nearly as versatile when it has been permanently tied into a loop.

The latter is what I have found to be the best over time from lots of partners, AMGA certified guides, and many hours of anchor building and rock rescue courses, training, and practice.

Instead of making a loop of any kind, tie a small figure 8 on each end. 

You can do everything you ever wanted to do with a cord, without ever having to untie them.

I think this is from Chris' book, maybe Mark. 

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is that whatever method you use, you need to be able to do it almost one handed. Not all stances are big enough and flat enough for you to  get fully hands free. Hence you either need to clove into a piece and hang while you set the cordelette up, or be able to shuffle from one hand to the other probably with a shoulder or your faceed press against the rock. For this reason, I find the two fig 8's on the tails clipped to the first piece easy to work with. It also means you can't drop the cordelette if you stumble or the wind blows. The no knot formation looks great on 3 pieces next to each other in a line, where you pull the SAME length of cord through all 3 carabiners, but for trad anchors the pieces will be scattered all over the place. This means keeping the tails even approximately the same length, or even stopping one from disappearing up and over its carabiner difficult without multiple adjustments, or starting by guessing the offset in tail length you need. Maybe I'm just incompetent, but have a go with three piece above you in a vertical line.

The no-knot method is great if you find the cordelette regularly too long. But unless we are talking bolts (in which case not need for a cordelette) I more often find the thing too short. This means that you need all the length you can get, and will be fighting to tie the master point. This is harder to do with the no-knot method as you will be pulling and fighting, and those little tails can easily disappear into the knot.

Finally, if you use the two fig 8s on the tails formation, but don't clip the 8s into a carabiner, you have the same system as shown in the video, so kind of a win-win thing.

Don't tie your cordalette ends together. Its a waste of cord and truly limits your options of how you use the cord in many situations from anchoring to transferring tension to ascending a line to hauling etc...

OAW King wrote:

Don't tie your cordalette ends together. Its a waste of cord and truly limits your options of how you use the cord in many situations from anchoring to transferring tension to ascending a line to hauling etc...

Unless I'm working with bolts, I'll usually just build the anchor with the rope. If I'm on bolts, I'll probably use a quad, so for me the best option is to keep mine in a loop. I think more important than not tying the ends together would be tying the ends together with a knot that is easy to untie like the flemish bend or flat overhand. I cringe any time I see cordalettes tied in a loop with a double fishermans

My favorite for keeping the cordelette in a loop: the flat fisherman. Cannot capsize, but can be untied by sliding the distal knot off the proximal tail. 

eli poss wrote:

. I cringe any time I see cordalettes tied in a loop with a double fishermans

<blush>... and I have mildly regretted the times I have had to untie that DF</blush>

Tie each end into a small (2") loop with doubled overhand and set this permanent knot. Clip both ends to your top piece of gear when you want your cordelette in a loop, clip them to separate (the farthest apart) pieces of gear and pull up bights in the middle for other pieces- same as standard- when you need more length.

The old traditional Water Knot for joining webbing turned out to be more of a Death Knot than the euro simple overhand! One of Chouinard's (Great Pacific Iron Works) campaigns, long, long, ago was to get people to join webbing with a double fisherman's knot.......and he was totally right! A Water Knot in webbing is incredibly hard to tighten and tends to loosen up without warning........though it does look very neat, which is probably why folks are fooled.

And.......if, like me, you are not about to commit to a rapell on a simple Euro-Overhand-On-The-End knot (EDK)......BUT you want the incredible advantage of having a joining knot that will hardly ever hang up on edges........then just tie a second overhand knot beyond the first one. This looks much more reassuring, cannot now come undone, and will not interfere with the knot's ability to slide over obstructions. If this seems paranoid you can recollect the immortal (?) words of one of the most venerated euro climbers of all times.....Lionel Terray: "Tous les chefs se son tues en rapell"!

Truck13 wrote: No reason to keep your cordelette tied at all. Most every anchor you build with a cordelette you tie a knot to create the master point and shelf. That knot closes the system. Starting with closed cordelette limits the options for the anchor. If you need to untie the closed cordelette, untying the knot that closed it is miserable. That knot often has been in place for as long as the cordelette has been in use and loaded repeatedly. None of this was my idea. It was taught to me by a AMGA certified guide. Back to the OP, when I used to close my cordelette, I used a double fisherman. Truck13

Where do the loose ends end up? in the master point, I assume?  I've always left my cordolette tied (I keep a long one and a short one handy for varying distances in my anchors)

Noah T wrote:

Where do the loose ends end up? in the master point, I assume?  I've always left my cordolette tied (I keep a long one and a short one handy for varying distances in my anchors)

You rack the cord untied and then whenever you want to build an anchor, you can quickly tie and dress an EDK (always with adequate tails) to make whatever size loop you need. That way you always have an adjustable cord.

Rusty wrote:

The old traditional Water Knot for joining webbing turned out to be more of a Death Knot than the euro simple overhand! One of Chouinard's (Great Pacific Iron Works) campaigns, long, long, ago was to get people to join webbing with a double fisherman's knot.......and he was totally right! A Water Knot in webbing is incredibly hard to tighten and tends to loosen up without warning........though it does look very neat, which is probably why folks are fooled.

I've settled on a little softer view of the lowly water knot.  

First, though, pre-weighting a water knot in webbing will tighten it enough that it will not loosen without warning (first issue); though periodic inspections are still warranted.  A second issue is that cyclical loading tends to cause the tails of a water knot to slowly creep into and through the knot, eventually leading to complete failure if unchecked.  A third issue is it may not be as strong as a double fisherman's in webbing.

Because of the third issue (strength), I use the double fisherman's for the few double-length slings that I carry and use on lead - so I can untie / retie them as needed for rap anchors.   Cutting a sewn sling and tying it back together loses some length.

Last, a correctly tied water knot is much easier to recognize in webbing than a double fisherman's.  And so I tend to prefer the water knot in rap anchors despite the second issue (tail creep under cyclical loading).  Others can easily inspect it pre-use and recognize whether it is correct.  But always check for adequate tails in a rap anchor!

Jordan G wrote:

You rack the cord untied and then whenever you want to build an anchor, you can quickly tie and dress an EDK (always with adequate tails) to make whatever size loop you need. That way you always have an adjustable cord.

Or don't tie an EDK - I generally think of it as unworthy of anything more than body weight during a rap.

An alternative when rigging a standard knotted cordelette for an anchor:  after threading through each piece, marry the two tails in a way as though they go to another imaginary piece.  Now statically equalize the power point bends of cord and tie the main knot as usual.  That knot isolates the ends from seeing any load.