Grigri Belay Technique

Healyje wrote:

Actually entirely repeatable should the need ever arise again. And, to a large extent, that's more a just matter of taking an attitude of there being no other acceptable response which again circles back to the notion of belaying being about both competence and what [continuous] attitude you bring to it.

I think you missed my point. Which is that most of the time when people faint they don't have a big warning. They just fall over. Been there, done that.

AndrewArroz wrote:

I think you missed my point. Which is that most of the time when people faint they don't have a big warning. They just fall over. Been there, done that.

Damn modern climbers don't even know how to faint properly!

AndrewArroz wrote:

I think you missed my point. Which is that most of the time when people faint they don't have a big warning. They just fall over. Been there, done that.

Having dealt with this a bit, though mostly when younger, that's never been my experience.

Healyje wrote:

You can use an ATC, or a hip-belay correctly, and still drop someone. [not really] (Because what? Of the magical effect of hip-belays, coupled with thousands of non-existing statistics on how gri-gri brought the reaper to every crag?)

You could be slammed into the wall. [you weren't belaying correctly in that case, something way less likely to happen with someone competent at hip belaying because they'd also understand proper stancing which goes hand-in-hand with hip belaying] (Fully agreed you should be planning ahead for that. but apparently not everyone all the time do because that does happen. However, you're still showing what seems to be as bad faith and subjective bias towards hip belay - somehow the simple fact of using a hip-belay makes you a smart belayer, while using a gri-gri makes your a dumb one apparently...)

Someone could bump into and make you let go of the brake strand at the wrong time. [I don't care if you get charged by a bull - don't let go (regardless of device or method)] (Right - here I assume that hip-belaying gives your super-strength & reflexes, making it impossible for you to let go of the strand in any circumstances?Or I guess your answer to unforeseen events forcing to let go is just "man up and don't"?)

You could be hit by a piece of gear/rock or whatever and again unwillingly let go of the brake strand. [you could and while an autoblock might save your climber, that has to be weighed against all the drops which entirely negate any claims of 'safer'] (Which your have stated often, but have yet to prove?)

You could faint for any reason - I had someone have what was likely hypoglycemia (not enough blood sugar, too much exercise/not enough food intake) on me once. Glad she used a gri-gri not an ATC or a hip belay. [I passed out in under a minute once belaying someone on lead with an ATC. As I was enveloped in purple haze i wrapped the rope around my hand three times and fell on top of my hand. My friend was entirely marooned until some other friends happen to rap down and rolled me over to free the rope. Had I been up a pitch and / or hip belaying I would have just done a leg and foot rap with the same results. It's all a matter of response.] (Well that's great for you and your climber, but this seems to me rather like an exceptional response to a bad turn of event than something I'd trust my life into. To me this is akin to saying " I onsighted free-solo this route at my onsight limit and didn't die - I guess that can now be considered an established procedure".)

Or your climbing partner could fall at 2nd/3rd clip and slam into you, again causing you to let go of the brake strand. It may not mean much if the landing is clean. It could be dangerous if not. [had that happen multiple times, with hip belay and ATC - wasn't an issue any of those times] (Well again great for your & climber, but I don't think that the. "just be stronger and don't let go even if you can't help it" is an approach to safety I'd trust my life into. If that was effective why not just wrap a couple coil of rope across your wrist and be stronger?).

Sorry but to argue that a device with an objectively safer feature (auto-blocking) is not any safer than a device lacking that feature just doesn't make sense. [not when those same 'safer' features objectively and unavoidably produce / manufacture way, way less safe belayers across the demographic] (Again! The grigri, through osmosis, produces bad belayer which makes it a useless piece of &*($. The grigri itself is obviously to blame for that, and a good belayer using other technic wouldn't be any safer with an objectively safer auto-blocking feature because that belayer is just so good naturally that his instinct, reflexes and smart planning are in themselves a natural auto-blocking system, therefore negating any so-called advantages the grigri may have... Over time, the grigri will dull the good belayer's responses and turn him into an other grigri user accident waiting to happen...

Well, I don't think I'll convince you... I just hope an objective reader coming across with make their own conclusions on the basis of the arguments we provided.... I do get some of your points - yes you can develop bad, lazy habits using a gri-gri. But again, the piece of metal isn't to blame for that.

Healyje wrote:

Having dealt with this a bit, though mostly when younger, that's never been my experience.

You're one of the lucky ones. So is your climber. 

Franck Vee wrote:Fully agreed you should be planning ahead for that. but apparently not everyone all the time do because that does happen.

Exactly, but stancing relative to the rock is part of belaying competence and stancing in general isn't taught anymore to the point of being a lost art.

 Franck Vee wrote: However, you're still showing what seems to be as bad faith and subjective bias towards hip belay - somehow the simple fact of using a hip-belay makes you a smart belayer, while using a gri-gri makes your a dumb one apparently...

Competent hip belaying on .10+ multipitch climbs required one be competent, cognizant, aware and alert. Those four personal behaviors are more valuable and dependable than any device. They are also behaviors negatively impacted by autoblock use.

Franck Vee wrote:

Right - here I assume that hip-belaying gives your super-strength & reflexes, making it impossible for you to let go of the strand in any circumstances?Or I guess your answer to unforeseen events forcing to let go is just "man up and don't"? 

Nope and yep - just don't let go. Period.

Franck Vee wrote:

Well that's great for you and your climber, but this seems to me rather like an exceptional response to a bad turn of event than something I'd trust my life into.

It's not, it's the response I would expect from any of my partners, but we share the same sensibilities and attitudes around belaying.

Franck Vee wrote:

Again! The grigri, through osmosis, produces bad belayer which makes it a useless piece of &*($. 

Over time, the grigri will dull the good belayer's responses and turn him into an other grigri user accident waiting to happen...

No and yes, on average, and that's the problem. When a large demographic of climbers learn to belay with an autoblocking device it is unavoidable that a significant percentage of the demographic will overly rely on the device as opposed to acquiring basic belaying competencies. That coupled with the fact such devices mask incompetence means that, yes, the demographic in effect becomes a random dropping generator and the number of dropping incidences and grigri threads on MP alone testify to that fact.

Healyje wrote:

No and yes, on average, and that's the problem. When a large demographic of climbers learn to belay with an autoblocking device it is unavoidable that a significant percentage of the demographic will overly rely on the device as opposed to acquiring basic belaying competencies. That coupled with the fact such devices mask incompetence means that, yes, the demographic in effect becomes a random dropping generator and the number of dropping incidences and grigri threads on MP alone testify to that fact.

I agree with you. That's why myself and my climbing partners all take some time at the gym to belay several routes with an ATC so as to stay sharp with the technique and focus required to do so safely. Otherwise brake assisted devices get used when the fingers get tired, and always outside climbing. It's really easy to get complacent with your belay technique when all you use is a brake assisted device. 

anotherclimber wrote:

I agree with you. That's why myself and my climbing partners all take some time at the gym to belay several routes with an ATC so as to stay sharp with the technique and focus required to do so safely. Otherwise brake assisted devices get used when the fingers get tired, and always outside climbing. It's really easy to get complacent with your belay technique when all you use is a brake assisted device. 

I got my Alpine Up just recently, and haven't had time to work much with the assisted mode, but I did try it out as a straight ATC style device in the gym recently, with a heavier climber.

I'm curious if you have also done so, and how it felt compared to an ATC. I was hoping it might have a bit more friction, but in practice it feels like less. 

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

I got my Alpine Up just recently, and haven't had time to work much with the assisted mode, but I did try it out as a straight ATC style device in the gym recently, with a heavier climber.

I'm curious if you have also done so, and how it felt compared to an ATC. I was hoping it might have a bit more friction, but in practice it feels like less. 

Best, OLH

I've actually only used it in dynamic (what you're calling straight ATC style mode) once. And that was only because I have a climbing partner who has old school 9mm half ropes that kept locking up my Alpine Up as I was feeding slack. And I didn't catch any falls with it like this so I don't have any experience to share with you. You might want to re-read through the following thread that you've posted on that talks about what you are asking.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109687295/climbing-technologies-alpine-up-review

Anyone seen this video? Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/cO6hqDnGfBg

Healyje wrote:

Exactly, but stancing relative to the rock is part of belaying competence and stancing in general isn't taught anymore to the point of being a lost art.

Competent hip belaying on .10+ multipitch climbs required one be competent, cognizant, aware and alert. Those four personal behaviors are more valuable and dependable than any device. They are also behaviors negatively impacted by autoblock use.

Nope and yep - just don't let go. Period.

It's not, it's the response I would expect from any of my partners, but we share the same sensibilities and attitudes around belaying.

No and yes, on average, and that's the problem. When a large demographic of climbers learn to belay with an autoblocking device it is unavoidable that a significant percentage of the demographic will overly rely on the device as opposed to acquiring basic belaying competencies. That coupled with the fact such devices mask incompetence means that, yes, the demographic in effect becomes a random dropping generator and the number of dropping incidences and grigri threads on MP alone testify to that fact.

Old lady H wrote:

I got my Alpine Up just recently, and haven't had time to work much with the assisted mode, but I did try it out as a straight ATC style device in the gym recently, with a heavier climber.

I'm curious if you have also done so, and how it felt compared to an ATC. I was hoping it might have a bit more friction, but in practice it feels like less. 

Best, OLH

I'm scratching my head why you would get an assisted belay device like the Alpine Up but then not use it as an assisted device? It will have a lot more friction/catching power, if you use it in its assisted orientation.

I use the Mammut Alpine Smart all the time trad climbing and really like it. It's essentially the same thing.