Anyone Use Permathrin (Sawyer Stuff)

Thoughts on it? Did it work? Any adverse affects? lol

Thinking of putting it on my clothes for the Winds next week as im sure the bugs will be heinous...

Yes, it works, but you'll still need DEET or Picaridin for exposed skin.  No adverse effects.  I buy concentrate (10% or 36.8%, look on Amazon or local Tractor Supply Co.) and dilute it down to 0.5% before application to clothes.  Much cheaper than the Sawyer stuff.

Does it stain fabric? Any fabrics it shouldn't be used on? Mosquitoes seem to leave me alone, and bites I do get barely itch. Unfortunately, my wife and kids are mosquito magnets, and when they get bit, the bites welt up and linger for days. As such, I'd love to be able to adopt a multi-layered defense, and I'd be tempted to treat every article of clothing we take on a camping/climbing trip.

baldclimber wrote:

Yes, it works, but you'll still need DEET or Picaridin for exposed skin.  No adverse effects.  I buy concentrate (10% or 36.8%, look on Amazon or local Tractor Supply Co.) and dilute it down to 0.5% before application to clothes.  Much cheaper than the Sawyer stuff.

how do you apply it? Spray bottle?

Caz Drach wrote:

how do you apply it? Spray bottle?

You can either soak gear in it or spray it on with any spray bottle.  I prefer to spray, but you'll probably want to reapply more often.  UV exposure, washing, etc degrades it over time.

It's safe when dry.  In liquid form the stuff isn't super toxic to humans but is VERY bad news for cats.  Don't spray/soak stuff around them.

Just a warning, permathrin is crazy toxic to cats, it causes seizures and can be fatal.  It is technically supposed to be safe for them once it dries, but I personally wouldn't risk it.  If you live with a cat, you should research carefully first.

Living in Northeast the tick situation is out of control and I am extremely paranoid about getting bit (I have been bit a number of times). I live in NYC but outdoors a lot between climbing, camping and fishing. I know more people than I can count who got infected with Lyme. 

The only stuff I trust is Sawyer's. I pre-treat my shoes, duffer bags and backpacks, all gear that touches the ground or comes near bushes. I will go as far as spray my car wheels where they touch the ground in the really woody/grassy area where there are known tick populations ( I once saw a tick crawl out of my car air vent as I was I driving) 

HOWEVER, I am also quite paranoid as I don't know how permethrin effects nylon/dyneema in climbing gear long term.

I emailed Black Diamond for advice and if they have done any testing on with climbing gear and permethrin. Their response was basically that there are way too types of permethrin concentrations and variables and no QC Lab has been performed on it. They also mentioned that the rule they advise by is: if its safe for nylon meterials and your skin, its usually safe on climbing gear. 

It is adviced that permethrin is not good to spray on your skin, but I spray it on my legs when wearing shorts and unless you buy an EXTREMELY Potent mix I wouldn't even think about NOT spraying it on my self as I would rather be safe than get bit. 

( I once woke up one morning in a tent as first light came up, opened my eyes and looked straight up. My entire roof of a tent was covered in ticks. I set the tent on fire with the sleeping bag and all the crap still inside)

Caz Drach wrote:

how do you apply it? Spray bottle?

Usually spray bottle, but have also used the soak method.  I find spraying actually wastes less.  It's a pyrethroid (synthetic pyrethrin), developed to be very UV stable.  It loses it effectiveness by washing out of your clothes.  You should expect it to last about six washes. 

More info: http://bfy.tw/DBhu 

Roman G wrote:

( I once woke up one morning in a tent as first light came up, opened my eyes and looked straight up. My entire roof of a tent was covered in ticks. I set the tent on fire with the sleeping bag and all the crap still inside)

Gnarly. I would probably have done the same thing.

Roman G wrote:

Living in Northeast the tick situation is out of control and I am extremely paranoid about getting bit (I have been bit a number of times). I live in NYC but outdoors a lot between climbing, camping and fishing. I know more people than I can count who got infected with Lyme. 

The only stuff I trust is Sawyer's. I pre-treat my shoes, duffer bags and backpacks, all gear that touches the ground or comes near bushes. I will go as far as spray my car wheels where they touch the ground in the really woody/grassy area where there are known tick populations ( I once saw a tick crawl out of my car air vent as I was I driving) 

HOWEVER, I am also quite paranoid as I don't know how permethrin effects nylon/dyneema in climbing gear long term.

I emailed Black Diamond for advice and if they have done any testing on with climbing gear and permethrin. Their response was basically that there are way too types of permethrin concentrations and variables and no QC Lab has been performed on it. They also mentioned that the rule they advise by is: if its safe for nylon meterials and your skin, its usually safe on climbing gear. 

It is adviced that permethrin is not good to spray on your skin, but I spray it on my legs when wearing shorts and unless you buy an EXTREMELY Potent mix I wouldn't even think about NOT spraying it on my self as I would rather be safe than get bit. 

( I once woke up one morning in a tent as first light came up, opened my eyes and looked straight up. My entire roof of a tent was covered in ticks. I set the tent on fire with the sleeping bag and all the crap still inside)

 

Dude, did you anger an evil sorceror or something? That definitely sounds like a curse from a Stephen King novel... (Out of the air vent?!)

Adverse affects are possible.  In general, insecticides that repel bugs, also kill them.  They often kill them by destroying enzymes in their nervous system.  Your nervous system has the same enzymes.  Don't use too much or use it too often, and you should be fine.

baldclimber wrote:

Yes, it works, but you'll still need DEET or Picaridin for exposed skin.  No adverse effects.  I buy concentrate (10% or 36.8%, look on Amazon or local Tractor Supply Co.) and dilute it down to 0.5% before application to clothes.  Much cheaper than the Sawyer stuff.

How does that work for you? I've heard that the TSC stuff is made for plant & ground application and does not bind well with fabric.

I've had the most success with the Sawyer brand.  Other brands have an aerosol applicator and it can be tempting to go with, but it ended up causing me more hassle in the end than the regular spray bottle.

Note- I have not tried concentrate, but will give it a shot.  Thanks for the idea baldclimber!

wivanoff wrote:

How does that work for you? I've heard that the TSC stuff is made for plant & ground application and does not bind well with fabric.

Oh, good question!  I use the concentrates made for livestock application.  They're designed to stick to fur and are not for use on plants.

Edited to add: using 10% concentrate, add 19 parts water to 1 part concentrate to give you 0.5% spray solution.  The petroleum distillate solvent smells a bit until the garments are dry, and is completely gone after the first wash.

I did one treatment with the Saywer stuff for a month in Southeast Asia. Worked like a charm. Picardin lotion on the legs when I wore shorts. Never had issues.

So I was there a couple weeks ago with permethrin-treated clothes. Maybe I didn't put enough on, but it didn't stop mosquitos from landing on me. It definitely doesn't stain clothes and the kind we had didn't smell at all. 

I will, however, recommend using Ultrathon for your insect repellant. My husband and I were cheerful and bite-free while everyone else was being devoured alive. It's saved me from many many places with insect infestations. Although, I didn't think the mosquitoes were all that bad while I was there.

Devan Squires wrote:

I will, however, recommend using Ultrathon for your insect repellant.

Ultrathon is merely DEET in a slow evaporating solution.

"Pump, with 19% DEET, provides continuous protection for up to 3 hours. Aerosol, with 25% DEET, provides continuous protection up to 8 hours. Lotion, with 34.34% DEET, provides continuous protection for up to 12 hours."

Jim Turner wrote:

Adverse affects are possible.  In general, insecticides that repel bugs, also kill them.  They often kill them by destroying enzymes in their nervous system.  Your nervous system has the same enzymes.  Don't use too much or use it too often, and you should be fine.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

Roman G wrote:

Living in Northeast the tick situation is out of control and I am extremely paranoid about getting bit (I have been bit a number of times). I live in NYC but outdoors a lot between climbing, camping and fishing. I know more people than I can count who got infected with Lyme. 

The only stuff I trust is Sawyer's. I pre-treat my shoes, duffer bags and backpacks, all gear that touches the ground or comes near bushes. I will go as far as spray my car wheels where they touch the ground in the really woody/grassy area where there are known tick populations ( I once saw a tick crawl out of my car air vent as I was I driving) 

HOWEVER, I am also quite paranoid as I don't know how permethrin effects nylon/dyneema in climbing gear long term.

I emailed Black Diamond for advice and if they have done any testing on with climbing gear and permethrin. Their response was basically that there are way too types of permethrin concentrations and variables and no QC Lab has been performed on it. They also mentioned that the rule they advise by is: if its safe for nylon meterials and your skin, its usually safe on climbing gear. 

It is adviced that permethrin is not good to spray on your skin, but I spray it on my legs when wearing shorts and unless you buy an EXTREMELY Potent mix I wouldn't even think about NOT spraying it on my self as I would rather be safe than get bit. 

( I once woke up one morning in a tent as first light came up, opened my eyes and looked straight up. My entire roof of a tent was covered in ticks. I set the tent on fire with the sleeping bag and all the crap still inside)

 

Dude not fcking around w/ ticks... hahha  tent on fire  love it!

Marc801 C wrote:

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

That's a good link.  It says:

permethrin "is a broad-spectrum insecticide that works by interfering with a nerve cell's ability to send a normal signal by jamming open tiny gates on the cell that need to open and close rapidly to carry the message."

...causing seizure

Jim Turner wrote:

That's a good link.  It says:

permethrin "is a broad-spectrum insecticide that works by interfering with a nerve cell's ability to send a normal signal by jamming open tiny gates on the cell that need to open and close rapidly to carry the message."

...causing seizure

I read through that link and did not see your quote. And the only reference to seizures was in cats. Where did you see what you "quoted"?

I did see: "Permethrin may also be used in places where food is handled, such as restaurants...Permethrin is more toxic to insects than it is to people and dogs...."

I've used the Sawyer product and found it effective. I guess you have to weigh the possible side effects of Permathrin exposure against the effects of Lyme disease or other tick-borne illness. I've read somewhere that Permathrin can be used directly on the body for lice/scabies. I'm comfortable using it on clothing, tents, etc.