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Using Totems with fixed biners

Original Post
mike again · · Ouray · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 47

Curious whether there are any savvy engineers out there for this. 

I like to set up my cams with biners secured in place with an o-ring, like a sport draw. When I got totems, I emailed totem about this and they responded: 

"We do not recommend this configuration because it interferes with the ability to distribute the load onto the lobes, just at the start of the loading process. In solid placements the difference will be negligible."

With emphasis on the second sentence, and continued amazement at how easy it is to get bomber placements with these things, I've been using them as shown (alien for comparison - that sling can move more freely). I can intuit that this could result in uneven pull on the lobes in some situations (assuming that the force of a fall did not easily snap the o-ring). But I would be interested in opinions about how much this should matter in practice, and how seriously totem's first sentence above should be taken, from someone with more physics and engineering than I have. 

FWIW, I haven't yet been doing any aid climbing with this setup, although I would eventually like to. I sort of/sort of don't want to try out the two-lobed placement ability of these things, but presumably I would try to clip the side ring in that situation regardless.  

MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2

The reply from totem seems spot-on... you want the biner to be able to move to be at optimal point for loading both lobesets...regardless, I assume that a real fall will break the o-ring pretty quickly. 

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

So you always clip the rope directly into your cams? Bad idea. Look,there are several reasons this isn't a good idea and really gets back to it being better if folks refrained from attempting to 'improve' or reinvent the basics of what we do. 

Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
mike again wrote:

 I like to set up my cams with biners secured in place with an o-ring, like a sport draw. 

Don't.

Baaaad idea.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

For all normal cams, this wouldent be an issue. I could see how it may theoretically be an issue on the Totems. It's impossible to say how more likely it would be for a piece to blow without extensive testing.

Andrew Jackson · · Greensboro, NC · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 1

There is a reason why quickdraws have bar tacks sewn all the way up to the rubber that stiffens the biner.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kyle Tarry wrote:

...they know far better than anyone on here...

It's actually not a question or issue specific to the Totems per se or one which requires any Totem-specific expertise or knowledge. 

It would be the same answer for any make of cam and it's more a case where common sense around the fact no cam ships this way should give one a hint it might not be a good idea.

baffledsloth · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 5

I don't understand why people keep insisting on trying this kind of thing. 

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kyle Tarry wrote:

Arguably it is.  Totem cams have a significantly different sling arrangement than other types of cams, and they are functionally a bit different as well. 

Nothing about the Totem's sling arrangement matters relative to this question / issue.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

How does OP clip a draw or sling to this cam to extend it?  Seems like a weird strategy, unless they only climb straight splitters.

This is more the real problem with this idea. It means the OP is always directly clipping the cam which is a really bad idea and clipping an extended draw would require clipping the inside loop with the captured biner mucking up the works and possibly causing a gate opening problem.

grog m · · Saltlakecity · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 70

Cool idea! But clipping to a cam is a skill in its own right (different than clipping to draws) that you can improve. Don't bother changing the basics of what we do. Instead get better at clipping in to your cams and it will make this 'invention' obsolete. 

Ryan Hill · · Denver, CO · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 30

In addition to the issues that others have brought up you are increasing the chances of the cam walking on you.  By fixing the carabiner to one spot on the sling it is no longer able to move up and down as the rope acts on it.  This means that any movement of the rope can cause the sling to pull on the cam, increasing drag and the possibility of walking the cam out of its placement.  

To put it bluntly; you are needlessly complicating a simple system in order to solve an issue that doesn't exist.  Wise up and listen to the manufacturer.  

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423

This is my (probably incomplete) understanding of the situation--I'd love to hear other people's comments on my analysis here, as I'm by no means an expert. There are three problems:

  1. Fixing the biner partially prevents the load from being equalized. Given equalization across the lobes is one of the main advantages of Totems, I'm not sure why you'd give this up.
  2. Fixing the biner transfers more of the rope's movement into the cam, causing it to walk. This is particularly bad when you're not extending, so the rope is actually clipped into the fixed biner. Walking is already a problem with unextended cams, and fixing the biner makes it worse.
  3. The rubber band can keep the biner attached to the webbing even when it has come unclipped, so that they appear fine at a glance but are only held together with rubber. Kyle Terry says above that this is impossible due to the geometry on the Totems, but I was able to reproduce the issue pretty easily with a Helium 2 carabiner on an Orange (1.8) Totem.

With sport draws you don't care about these concerns because there's no equalization on a single bolt, bolts don't walk, and bartacking on quickdraws prevents the unclipping problem. You'd fix the biner on a sport draw to prevent the carabiner turning, which can cause it to unclip in a different way. But this is relatively rare. Equalization and walking are much bigger concerns with cams, and at least in the case where the carabiner turns and unclips, you can tell it's unclipped.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

Learn to put a finger in the basket of the biner to locate it if you're having trouble clipping. This is a horrible idea even if it weren't for the delay in loading of each lobe that totem gave you. Ryan's post above is accurate, this is greatly increasing chances of walking. 

Outside of Indian Creek how often are people not extending placements? I may clip direct on about 10% of my placements max (usually in a corner/straight splitter and only near the very end of the pitch in a direct run to the anchor).

David K · · The Road, Sometimes Chattan… · Joined Jan 2017 · Points: 423
Nick Drake wrote:

Outside of Indian Creek how often are people not extending placements? I may clip direct on about 10% of my placements max (usually in a corner/straight splitter and only near the very end of the pitch in a direct run to the anchor).

On Gunks slabs I'll clip direct quite frequently due to the risk of hitting ledges and flakes.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 342

Horrible idea for ANY cam, don't do it.   Cams are not quick draws.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Anonymous wrote:

Aside from the extra weight, would small quickdraws help?  

Your gear shouldn't dictate what constitutes appropriate slinging - the route and rock should. So it's not a case of no draw, this draw or that draw - it's climbing with whatever draws are necessary to properly sling a route. That's why we carry extendable alpine / trad draws - so we can sling placements as required. Are there places where you can get away with not slinging cams? Yeah, there are some, but they are more the exception than the rule. At most crages you're going to want to sling your cams.

Personally I carry a mix of 2/3s alpine draws and 1/3 quickdraws made with loose 7" Metolius draw slings and essentially never clip a cam directly as I like my cams to stay where and how I placed them. This past weekend I recovered an Alien and a Camalot off of a route I was doing that had clearly been clipped directly and then walked badly on whomever left them. Bad idea.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252
Nick Drake wrote:

Learn to put a finger in the basket of the biner to locate it if you're having trouble clipping. This is a horrible idea even if it weren't for the delay in loading of each lobe that totem gave you. Ryan's post above is accurate, this is greatly increasing chances of walking. 

Outside of Indian Creek how often are people not extending placements? I may clip direct on about 10% of my placements max (usually in a corner/straight splitter and only near the very end of the pitch in a direct run to the anchor).

Quite often, actually.  Cams in a splitter don't always need extension, and if you're placing while pumped, sometimes it's better to get a piece in and keep going rather than mess around with extending an alpine.  Granted, if you have slings around your shoulder, this is less of a concern.  This is usually with C4s in a straight splitter, though...can't think of  reason why I would ever do this with totems, as the type of placement/rock I would use them on would usually necessitate extension.

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651
David Kerkeslager wrote:

On Gunks slabs I'll clip direct quite frequently due to the risk of hitting ledges and flakes.

Ah the horizontal cracks, that's an animal my granite self isn't used to. If it's cruxy above a slab I will sometimes put on a long sling on and also clip the racking biner while making the more, then un clip the rope once I've pulled it. I doubt that approach would work as well for you in gunks not being vertical cracks.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Quite often, actually.  Cams in a splitter don't always need extension, and if you're placing while pumped, sometimes it's better to get a piece in and keep going rather than mess around with extending an alpine.  Granted, if you have slings around your shoulder, this is less of a concern.  This is usually with C4s in a straight splitter, though...can't think of  reason why I would ever do this with totems, as the type of placement/rock I would use them on would usually necessitate extension.

That's the other thing I don't understand, peoples obsession with extending alpine draws. You *can* extend them, but you certainly don't have to. If it's not too wandering of a pitch I don't extend the alpine draws. Faster for me and the follower. Still get the reduced chance of the cam walking. 

mike again · · Ouray · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 47

Ha, fun discussion. Not surprised by the controversy. Some responses on the use here (I’ll come back to the substance later on):

  • First of all, I'm not by any stretch advocating for anyone to do this or anything else. I'm interested in hearing reasons why it would be inherently dangerous. I will do my own risk-benefit analysis and you do yours, but I'll ignore the dogma.
  • I didn't invent this by any stretch (used a friends rack and liked the benefits). Here's someone else who does this: http://stephdavis.co/blog/racking-tips-for-crack-climbing/ Not that I’ll ever have close to her level of performance, of course.
  • I have adopted this recently, and find this a minor, but nice to have, change. Analogous to the difference between climbing sport with quickdraws vs. alpine draws - for me, it's not necessary, but preferred.
  • I have no problems clipping cams with loose biners, or managing my gear in general. These o-rings just keep everything in place – again, it’s a marginal benefit, but so are a lot of the other things we choose to do in this game.
  • It's not limiting, functionally. I carry a mix of over the shoulder slings, alpine draws, and quickdraws depending on the route. For the former, I just clip the cam carabiner directly. For the latter two I just clip them through the cam sling above the fixed biner (extending or not depending on the placement). In a fall the o-ring would just snap (says the theory).
  • When I clip the cam directly, it will be either at stances and placements where I am confident walking, shifting and rope drag won't be an issue, where I'm pumped or sketched and want a piece quickly to protect a move, or where I want to protect a ledge fall or the like.
  • This has nothing to do with the alpine draw issue - these biners can't flip around. You might be able to work them around if you really tried on some standard cams, but you'd have to work at it. Very different than the alpine draw problem in that video, which I know about and have never considered using.

Please keep the thoughts coming. More thoughts on the significance of the equalization issue for placement strength would be welcome. I get that marginal placements could be affected this, and strong placements probably not. Just curious to hear more than that level of analysis.  

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Nick Drake wrote:

That's the other thing I don't understand, peoples obsession with extending alpine draws. You *can* extend them, but you certainly don't have to. If it's not too wandering of a pitch I don't extend the alpine draws. Faster for me and the follower. Still get the reduced chance of the cam walking. 

Not really a matter of obsession, just a matter of what the pitch dictates. If you undersling the odds are good your cams are going to move in some manner. Like I said, I like mine to stay where and how I placed them. You may or may not care so whatever works for you.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
Kyle Tarry wrote:

Everything doesn't need to be "I do it right and you don't."  Nick is just saying that you don't always need to fully extend every placement to keep it from walking, and that you need to make an on-route assessment to determine the right sling length.

Yet again, it's not an arbitrary matter of what I or anyone else just happens to feel like doing or not doing in the moment - it's a matter of what constitutes appropriate slinging of the pitch. If you undersling it's a fact your cams are going to try to move. If that's ok with you then - as I just said above - cool. It's not ok with me, so I sling. Can you get away with underslinging for quite a while? Sure. But if you regularly push yourself and fall quite a bit it's going to bite you sooner or later. Clearly YMMV.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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