Rappelling vs Lowering Ethics at Specific LA Crags

Fernando Cal wrote:

As someone that keeps learning and wants to learn more about climbing, I've been interested in this topic for quite some time. I've been in situations when I'm climbing a route and encounter a bad bolt (either on route or at anchors - sport and mixed routes) and at that moments I wish I could fix the problem instead of waiting for someone else to do it. So I'll post here that I'm eager to learn a new skill imperative to climbing at any crag to replace bad bolts/anchors. I'm LA local and free most weekends. I'm more of an "actions speak louder than words" kinda guy, so I'd like to learn and help and eventually be able to improve our local crags. 

I no longer live in SoCal, so unfortunately I can't offer to help out, but if you will just start out by both upgrading anchors how I explained earlier and posting about bad bolts that you find it will make a big difference.

With all due respect, John, I can locate and send you the emails I sent to Greg, with no response.  Ken's post echoes the same result. Perhaps you highlighted the issue when you stated that Greg works with hundreds of people across the country. The point isn't Greg, he does a hell of a job, it's that there are many anchors and hardware in need of replacement in S. Cal and elsewhere, but donations and/or hardware are needed to get the job done. 

Just another view re: ASCA.  I contacted Greg about rebolting Slick Rock Dome near Tahoe and he immediately came through with bolts and anchors for about a dozen climbs, many multipitch.  Not one old bolt was usuable so it was quite a bit of stuff.  We did donate back to ASCA to help cover the cost, but that was our idea and not required.

Not at all saying that didn't happen, Ben, I'm only stating what my experience was.

Ney...great work that you're doing at Slick Rock. Great that you had a positive experience with getting replacement anchors and hardware. Wish we could get some consistent funding, hardware, and/or anchor replacement for Echo Cliffs, Malibu Creek, and the Lookout.

It is a shame it can't be more like Europe where local tourism bodies and villages often pay for climbing maintenance (and for new routes, via ferrata routes, etc.), and where there are more professional guides, who apparently take it upon themselves to keep the local climbs maintained.  Just the liability alone would keep anyone here from wanting to help fund anything.

Thanks, Guy. As usual you are a wealth of knowledge. Indeed, Louie has moved to Ten Sleep, WY and developing routes there. 

I'm happy to take on Echo, I agree it's the worst case.

Guy, I'll let you know once the ball is rolling. Other folks willing to help out should get in touch. A couple people have reached out already, much thanks.

And thanks for the tip about Cloud Nine. It's on the list.

Alex Bury wrote:

I'm happy to take on Echo, I agree it's the worst case.

Guy, I'll let you know once the ball is rolling. Other folks willing to help out should get in touch. A couple people have reached out already, much thanks.

And thanks for the tip about Cloud Nine. It's on the list.

Alex!

I just saw all of this. I'm in for helping as well. Let's put Espresso on that list, prob most climbed route at echo and anchors are original from 20 years ago. I also need to get the old shuts off of caffeine, we put new anchors on it but didn't bring breaker bar to remove old bolts that are seriously locked in. 

and as far as this whole debate of "ethics" goes, I say lower just don't top rope 

Alex, thanks for doing the work at Echo.  Please let us know how to get some hardware $$ to you.

Ken Noyce wrote:

There's a lot of bad and outdated advice on this thread.  Lowering is the standard practice for all of the mentioned areas.  The old advice of always rap to save the anchors is outdated and unsafe.  Please keep some quicklinks/rings/mussy's/steel biners, or whatever your preferred anchor material is in your pack to replace worn anchors.  It is easy, it is inexpensive, and it leads to safer climbing all around. Even replacing worn coldshuts isn't a complicated process.

Maybe it needs to be made clearer what people mean by "lowering off", particularly since you can have people with greatly different experience levels reading these threads.  Too often people equate that with top roping through the mussy hooks.  That is generally NOT the policy nor should it be since, as everyone knows, it leads to dangerously worn hooks that often wait a long time for replacement.  If you're top roping, do so through your draws.  If it's easier to lower when cleaning, I suppose that's fine, but I don't believe, if you know what you're doing, that rapping is any more dangerous in this context.  It's great to advocate that people bring replacement gear but, let's be honest, most will not and we'll be left with some really worn, really scary mussy hooks that many people will continue to use.  

Thanks for your responses and to those that have reached out. And thanks Joe and others for the help on Caffeine. I'll keep you in the loop Joe, hopefully this means we get to do some climbing as well.

Fat Dad wrote:

Maybe it needs to be made clearer what people mean by "lowering off", particularly since you can have people with greatly different experience levels reading these threads.  Too often people equate that with top roping through the mussy hooks.  That is generally NOT the policy nor should it be since, as everyone knows, it leads to dangerously worn hooks that often wait a long time for replacement.  If you're top roping, do so through your draws.  If it's easier to lower when cleaning, I suppose that's fine, but I don't believe, if you know what you're doing, that rapping is any more dangerous in this context.  It's great to advocate that people bring replacement gear but, let's be honest, most will not and we'll be left with some really worn, really scary mussy hooks that many people will continue to use.  

Good point Fat Dad, for those of you who don't know, when we are talking about "lowering off a route" we are meaning that the last person in the group lowers off through the anchors.  Other people in the group should toprope or lower through their own draws, only the person cleaning the route should lower through the anchors.