Dmm dragon 2

I'm thinking about buying my first trad rack and am interested in the dmm dragon 2s. Everyone in my area uses BD but there seems to be a lot o benefits of the dmms over the c4. 

Any recommendations? 

I own both the older dragons and the newer dragons in purple, green and red- (Equivalent to BD #.5,.75, 1) The rest of my rack is mostly C4's and X4's. I wouldn't say they're leaps and bounds better than C4's, but definitely comparable. I find that the lack of thumb loop makes it easier to drop while being placed. The extendable slings were really the selling point for me. The only issue is that you have to extend them a certain way, or else the rubber stitch covering will get chocked into the thumb loop eyelets. I got used to this fairly quickly. I also feel that the springs are slightly looser than C4's causing them to walk more often. Lastly, the lack of thumb loop also makes aid climbing, or even French free'ing more difficult. 

All that being said, I've whipped on them several times without issue! I enjoy having them as doubles to my C4's.

The slings on the C4s will last longer. I'd go with w/e is cheaper. The new WC cams have the extendible sling and thumb loops, but it's usually easier to get a deal on BD cams. I'd say that dragon 2s, c4s and new friends are all pretty much interchangeable.

I have both on my rack and use them interchangably.  The DMMs do have an extendable sling, but I don't find myself in many situations where I need the extra bit of webbing.  They are virtually the same expansion range and they use the same color scheme, so racking them is easy.

I have a full rack of them. I use the extension feature a lot. Otherwise find them very similar to the C4s that all my climbing partners use.

If you typically use a quickdraw on the Camalot sling to prevent walking and minor drag, then the extendable sling is absolutely worth it.  Not having to carry those extra quickdraws saves A LOT of weight.  I personally love mine for that reason and they are my preferred cams for single pitch.  

That being said, if you only have 1 set of cams, I won't recommend them over Camalots unless you can get them for a good deal.  Camalots are cheaper here in the US and I cannot say anything bad about them, because they are awesome too.  IMO, Dragons are a perfect second set of cams to go along with Camalots.

you should get what you like, not what other people are using in your area. dragons are definitely quality cams.

that being said i prefer the c4s for two reasons: extendable slings suck for the follower, seriously....its annoying. Im really hoping black diamond doesn't follow this current trend and keeps their slings the way they are. and secondly, like people have said having a thumb loop is amazing. can't imagine not having one.

Dragon for extendable sling and grip. Weight saving.

verticallstore.com. Make price into US$ in top left.

I have a single rack of BD C4s and single rack dmm dragon 2. I really love the extendable slings for wandering routes. I also really love the increased surface area on the lobes and the raw machined finish. They are very gratifying to place. 

Dragon 2 pros over C4:

* Lower bulk.

* Attract crowds attention :)

* A tiny bit better grip at slick rock.

C4 pros over Dragon 2:

* Cheap.

If one fails on a trad route it is not due to C4s over Dragons 2 or vice versa preference.

So I can get a better sdeal on WC and dmm than BD.  I'm leaning towards WC Bc of the similarity to BD but the only concern for me is the 10kn rating. Is this a unwarranted fear?  I'm 200lbs and know if u hit 10kn your jacked up regardless but the dmm small cams having the high strength does make me feel a little more confident. 

Ive found the WC's to not hold up as well, no real problems, but ive used some on a friends rack and have had issues with sticky lobes, bent wires, loose contruction and etc, and that with frequent cleaning etc. My person opinion is that the WC dont have as confidence inspiring feel to them as the dragons. The wider surface contact of the dragon two lobes has helped with resistance to walking. That, combined with the extendable slings make the dragons more reliable to me. It all come down to feel and what you like, dragons feel good to me over most cams

Kevin Kelley wrote:

So I can get a better sdeal on WC and dmm than BD.  I'm leaning towards WC Bc of the similarity to BD but the only concern for me is the 10kn rating. Is this a unwarranted fear?  I'm 200lbs and know if u hit 10kn your jacked up regardless but the dmm small cams having the high strength does make me feel a little more confident. 

They are rated to 10 kn with the sling extended and 12 without,  which is plenty strong.  All of the Metolius Master cams are rated to 10 kn and you never hear of them failing.  Handling, reliability, and longevity are the more important factors over strength when you get up to the larger sizes, which are all equally capable of keeping you safe.

Also, Wild country only offers size 0.5 and above currently (0.4 coming later) and they are all the same strength, so for smaller cams you'll be looking elsewhere anyways.

I'll suggest you read one of my nuts and cams review on page 4. https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112939616/fs-totem-cams-basic-cams-nuco-and-nuts-price-drop-for-nuco?page=4

It could help you in your decision.

Big fan of DMM Dragons. Mostly because they occasionally saves me a step of extending with an alpine draw. The lack of an thumb loop seems to be the biggest complaint, I've never had an issue with this, but then again I don't aid. The same color scheme as c4s is really nice for doubling up. The new Dragon2 has the "triple grip" lobes, which inspire confidence in the placement (honestly I reach for these before cruxes), but is debated in the physics literature whether lobe texture this provides any extra holding strength. 

Soulless Ginger wrote:

you should get what you like, not what other people are using in your area. dragons are definitely quality cams.

that being said i prefer the c4s for two reasons: extendable slings suck for the follower, seriously....its annoying. Im really hoping black diamond doesn't follow this current trend and keeps their slings the way they are. and secondly, like people have said having a thumb loop is amazing. can't imagine not having one.

The thumps loops are probably amazing for you because you are used to that. Simple as that. Metolius remove the thumps loops for the new generation of the master cams. They certainly not did that to make the cam worst. There are benefits and inconveniences for bot way. If we just talk about the goods I can make Hitler a nice guy. Also, the double sling is a pain for the follower when it's extended, like each extended double sling. And it's not because you have a double sling that you need to extend it. If your followers don't want to deal with that, don't extend the sling and put a quickdraw. Your Dragon will become a C4 with a better grip and no thumps loop. But sometimes it really worth it to extend and the Dragon gives you the possibility. If the leader wants to extend a sling because the route needs it, he should do it, period. The follower is on top rope.

BD, DMM and WC all make bomber cams. The intricacies of each design is best explored on your own, out there on rock; i.e. you'll probably end up getting what your mentor has, or not because you don't like his/her pieces compared to someone else's. 

This is not to say that all the nit-picking isn't worth listening to, but it can be a weird rabbit-hole when you're buying new gear. 

My rack is all BD with some supplemental Metolius TCUs for the small end... my partners have all the Aliens. 

I know people that love their Dragons. At the same time my C4s have been solid and I've had good customer service experience. It's win-win. Heck, if they have the same color scheme I'd go half Dragon half C4 for the helluvit. 

I have only played with dmm dragon cams a little bit, while they are beautifully made and ergonomically refined I am not a fan of the short stem while you can get used to this there are obvious short comings to the shorter stem and while this may not be an issue in 99% of placements there is always the 1%. The extendable sling isn't as good as it may appear in reality the shorter stem makes the extension rather minimal (about the same as having a short sport draw on a c4) nonetheless useful for avoiding things such as edges, reduce walking and when combined with a extended alpine draw the do make things rather long, though don't fool your self into thinking you will get to bring less draws. 

The thumb loop vs no thumb loop argument is dumb as once you start using the dragons you will quickly adapt so i view it as a mute point.

Yeah I figured that w the extendable runners. I figured it didn't really make a difference. 

The thing I like about the dragons is that they feel super solid.  I have some C4s also but I honestly like the handling of the springs in the dragons. 

But what I was wondering if the shorter stem would make it so you couldn't get the cam further back in a crack? And also why people say the WC cams will not hold up as well?  

The pommel on the Dragons sit pretty much exactly in the same place you would put your thumb on a C4. If you bury a C4 beyond that your follower will hate you as it will be a PITA to get out. Had a similar situation earlier this year happen with a first gen Master Cam, I was not happy to have to try and fish that one out. 

Marc-Olivier Chabot wrote:

The thumps loops are probably amazing for you because you are used to that. Simple as that. Metolius remove the thumps loops for the new generation of the master cams. They certainly not did that to make the cam worst. There are benefits and inconveniences for bot way. If we just talk about the goods I can make Hitler a nice guy. Also, the double sling is a pain for the follower when it's extended, like each extended double sling. And it's not because you have a double sling that you need to extend it. If your followers don't want to deal with that, don't extend the sling and put a quickdraw. Your Dragon will become a C4 with a better grip and no thumps loop. But sometimes it really worth it to extend and the Dragon gives you the possibility. If the leader wants to extend a sling because the route needs it, he should do it, period. The follower is on top rope.

why do you feel the need to turn this into an argument? I simply told him to make his own decisions and told him MY EXPERIENCE with said cams as a small piece of information for his larger decision. not everything has to be an argument. Im glad you like the dragons, but I don't. And that and only that is needed justify both of our decisions to use what we use.