To the American Fork climbers with aggressive Rhodesian Ridgebacks...

Pro tip: do NOT bring aggressive dogs to any crag on a busy weekend day, especially not to a narrow crag like Serenity Wall. 

You know your dogs are too aggressive when the only person they will listen to has to have their climber go indirect and switch belayers just to safely move the dog out of the way.

It was a very dangerous situation and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of crag ethics. 

Sincerely, another AF climber 

Just leave dogs at home I say.

As per usual, AFC was a total shit show this weekend. One group had a freaking crag kitten - a kitten on a leash! I have heard of them but never seen one. There were also 5 dogs at the wall, and they were going ape shit over that cat. Why would you bring a cat?? Freaking kitten was shivering in the gusty wind and people were bellowing commands at their dogs to not mess with the cat, so annoying. But I didn't complain because it was expected at Division wall. 

The one thing that I WONT tolerate is aggressive dogs. Don't bring your aggressive bastard to the wall. It is a danger to everyone. If your dog is growling or postering at me I will get very annoyed. There is a reason that dogs are subservient to humans. If your dog bites me I will f$$&^ing lose it and get violent with it. I will pick up a grapefruit sized rock and attempt to bash it in the head. I will plant my chaco so deep in its ribs that I will have to unstrap to pull it out. I am sure I will have to fight you after as well. 

LL2 wrote:

Just leave dogs at home I say.

That would solve so many problems...  Unfortunately there is a subset of the population that is extremely selfish and has no regard for others...

Stagg, it is true. I've climbed many years in many places. A dog or two at the obscure crag only you and your friends go to is one thing. Dogs at virtually any crag at AF on the weekend is another. They have a pack mentality. It doesn't matter how good a person's dog is, once you get enough of them at a crag they start acting out. Plus they dig holes, run around kicking up dust, sneak into your pack and take your lunch when no one's looking. I''ve been a lot of places where dogs at the crag were no big deal, but far more where they made things a pain. If I had one, I would not take it to a busy crag. Period.

LL2, totally agreed re: not taking any dog to a crag if you had one. Today's craziness and utter stupidity solidified this decision.

Greg is right, today was indeed a total shit show in AF. I do not have any pups, but when I get one someday it will not join me for day cragging. I've seen far too many climbing situations that are overcomplicated by dogs. 

You are also right about selfishness. The woman sitting with the dogs was very much of a "we're here first so eff off" mentality. We were 100% on her and the dogs' schedules as we waited for them to corral the pups so we could move about the crag. I wish I had said something but at the time we just wanted to get out of there. 

Don't blame it on the dog -Blame bad decisions about bringing a dog to the crag on the owners

Jackii -- true. There are no bad dogs. Just bad dog owners. Unfortunately it would have been a moot point had things gone south today. 

Holy shit, AF is over run with mongrels.  SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR PETS EVERYBODY!

Ty Gregory wrote:

Holy shit, AF is over run with mongrels.  SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR PETS EVERYBODY!

Holy shit, AF is over run with mongrels.  SPAY AND NEUTER YOUR SELF EVERYBODY!

Not to be rude, but what I see here are a bunch of people who didn't have the courage to confront these people directly at the crag. Now that you are home, you take to the keyboards. Aggressive dogs should not be brought to crags, but it takes face-to-face conversations, a lot of the time, to help less considerate people understand that. Speak up next time.

clint helander wrote:

Not to be rude, but what I see here are a bunch of people who didn't have the courage to confront these people directly at the crag. Now that you are home, you take to the keyboards. Aggressive dogs should not be brought to crags, but it takes face-to-face conversations, a lot of the time, to help less considerate people understand that. Speak up next time.

Tried it on several occassions.  Doesn't work.  

Think about it:  Someone who brings an agressive dog to the crag already doesn't give a shit about other people.  What makes you think that pointing out how their actions affect others is going to change their mind?

If only it was legal to beat them over the head with my hexes, then maybe they would get it...

clint helander wrote:

Not to be rude, but what I see here are a bunch of people who didn't have the courage to confront these people directly at the crag. Now that you are home, you take to the keyboards. Aggressive dogs should not be brought to crags, but it takes face-to-face conversations, a lot of the time, to help less considerate people understand that. Speak up next time.

Yep, welcome to the future. In the good old days people were civil enough to leave mean dogs where they belong because they were aware that "society" would straighten them out if they acted stupid. Now-a-days people do dumb stuff knowing if anyone challenges them for acting stupid they are "justified" in acting even dumber because it isn't "polite" to "tell me what to do" People stood up for what was right over "an individual's right to do whatever they want" in a heartbeat.

This is a public safety issue, not getting your lunch snarfed by a corgi. 

If I were in this situation, I would politely ask the individual to remove the violent animal(s) for the good of everyone involved. If they refused (in a civil manner) I would then suggest that perhaps the proper authorities should become involved. If that didn't work or they became "uncivil" at any time during the process they might need to have the stuffings "conversationed" out of them. 

Any way you look at it the behavior does not go uncorrected, and they understand the consequences of bringing their ill-behaved animals to the crag. If it's more hassle than it's worth they will leave them at home. JB

Edit to add; Been climbing for 39 years, have owned dogs the whole time, own one now. Never brought one to a crag, ever. JB 

John Barritt wrote:

Yep, welcome to the future. In the good old days people were civil enough to leave mean dogs where they belong because they were aware that "society" would straighten them out if they acted stupid. Now-a-days people do dumb stuff knowing if anyone challenges them for acting stupid they are "justified" in acting even dumber because it isn't "polite" to "tell me what to do" People stood up for what was right over "an individual's right to do whatever they want" in a heartbeat.

This is a public safety issue, not getting your lunch snarfed by a corgi. 

If I were in this situation, I would politely ask the individual to remove the violent animal(s) for the good of everyone involved. If they refused (in a civil manner) I would then suggest that perhaps the proper authorities should become involved. If that didn't work or they became "uncivil" at any time during the process they might need to have the stuffings "conversationed" out of them. 

Any way you look at it the behavior does not go uncorrected, and they understand the consequences of bringing their ill-behaved animals to the crag. If it's more hassle than it's worth they will leave them at home. JB

Edit to add; Been climbing for 39 years, have owned dogs the whole time, own one now. Never brought one to a crag, ever. JB 

Wholeheartedly agree. We have a dog. We love him. He's a very cherished member of our family. He's never been to the crag.

clint helander wrote:

Not to be rude, but what I see here are a bunch of people who didn't have the courage to confront these people directly at the crag. Now that you are home, you take to the keyboards. Aggressive dogs should not be brought to crags, but it takes face-to-face conversations, a lot of the time, to help less considerate people understand that. Speak up next time.

This is a bit ironic isn't it? Calling people cowardly keyboard warriors on MP....LMAO. 

If people want to vent, complain, or bounce ideas off of others they are more than welcome to. The is Mountain Project, Not Logic Project. Anyways, OP said next time she is going to speak up. Not everyone is extroverted and prepared to be an ass. So please, shut up. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

This is a bit ironic isn't it? Calling people cowardly keyboard warriors on MP....LMAO. 

If people want to vent, complain, or bounce ideas off of others they are more than welcome to. The is Mountain Project, Not Logic Project. Anyways, OP said next time she is going to speak up. Not everyone is extroverted and prepared to be an ass. So please, shut up. 

Clint is the man. I agree with him.... Different generations. 

I think someone above said it already, but people with dogs at the crag DO NOT want to hear that their dog is a pain. Especially if the dog is aggressive. These owners are either ignorant or just terrible people when it comes do understanding their dogs and other people. I have stood by at other places while a man with a growling, teeth baring dog, just told the scared kids that had to walk right next to his dog that the dog would never hurt anyone and he just doesn't understand why no one believes him. 

The thing is, even if the dog is the nicest best dog in the world. It's still a pain at the crag. Not everyone likes dogs and allowing your super friendly dog to roam around sniffing and nudging belayers hands (looking for a scratch) while they're trying to give a good belay is a bothersome at best and dangerous at worst. If you want your dog to get out and be outside then take the dog to do a dog thing, not hang out at the crag bugging other people. 

I say these things as a lifelong dog owner. My little scottie dog isn't going to cause anyone any harm, but that doesn't mean its appropriate for me to bring him to the crag to hang out while I climb. 

Just curious - was the aggressive dog on a leash? Also, were unleashed dogs coming up to the aggressive dog?

The aggressive dog was on a leash, albeit a very long one that didn't restrain him from taking up the whole narrow walkway. As mentioned before, he still had to be restrained before we could walk about. 

Being communicative in person is definitely preferable, but when you are in a situation that is potentially dangerous and the dog owners are not exactly the friendliest of people, you have to understand why some people would just want to get out of there. 

"Rhodesian Ridgebacks"

these guys are scary. Owners had to keep their's inside when I was building them an awning. They closed the slider, locked it, then moved the couch in front of the door. Apparently he can unlock and open all of their doors!