Two Recent Glue In failures; are there others?

I think there are a lot of great things about glue ins, but they are not without their drawbacks including unexpected failures (most likely due to bad mixing).

This year, there has been a failure at Stratocaster Wall at Red Rock and on Sprout at Maple Canyon.

Anyone know of other failed glue-ins?

UGH.

I had not heard about stratocaster.  
Thank you.

The Sprout failure was a Fixe that came out without glue on it. 

My best speculation is that the installer pumped the glue into a void off of the drill hole. 

Brendan N wrote:

The Sprout failure was a Fixe that came out without glue on it. 

My best speculation is that the installer pumped the glue into a void off of the drill hole. 

hmm, yea that's placement error then. You must always see the epoxy exit the hole to confirm the placement is good and there is enough epoxy coverage. Once you do it many times you know just the right amount of epoxy to add to get it so only a tad comes out, but anytime you insert the bolt fully and nothing comes out, you may have not inserted enough epoxy.

There was a glue in failure at the turtle wall in st George. A fixe bolt failed in an anchor in bad rock. The consensus was poor cleaning of the hole. this was 2 yrs ago I think. 

A ti glue in failed in a roof don't remember where. The shaft snapped. Badly drilled hole. 

Anyone seen a wave bolt pull?

Rob Warden...Space Lizard wrote:

There was a glue in failure at the turtle wall in st George. A fixe bolt failed in an anchor in bad rock. The consensus was poor cleaning of the hole. this was 2 yrs ago I think. 

A ti glue in failed in a roof don't remember where. The shaft snapped. Badly drilled hole. 

Anyone seen a wave bolt pull?

Well, all the bolts that I saw at Turtle Wall were Wave Bolts. Did those come before or after the failure? I also seem to recall all the installed bolts appeared to have been installed with concrete, not epoxy at Turtle Wall, although I couldent be sure.

I think the main issue with that titanium bolt was that it was installed upside down and sticking out of the rock. I've seen several Fixe glue-ins that were not countersunk and bent as a result.

The failure at Stratocaster in Red Rock was not due to insufficient hole cleaning -- the glue never hardened.  From what I heard, a month or two later the removed bolt was still covered in goopy, unhardened sludge.

Disclaimer:  The following is all "best guess"  2nd hand info based on what info I was able to find about the incident, shared to help inform the community, not to point any fingers.

Couple things probably contributed to the glue not hardening:

1. The glue was expired. Check your expiration dates.  I've heard of people checking Home Depot shelves and finding 2+ yr expired glue.
2. The bottle of glue wasn't brand new (a partial bottle). Often times you don't end with an empty bottle -- so you cap it, and start with that tube on the next job.

The 2nd point is important.  If you've ever used a partial bottle, sometimes the tip can get clogged / obstructed / pinched, etc. etc.  Keep the tip clean when you cap it, and clean it when you put on a new nozzle.

As an example, I think Sika AnchorFix-2 is basically just two bags inside the tube (pardon the from memory illustrations, I don't have any bottles to tear apart at the moment)...

If one of the bags gets obstructed -- or if the plunger in a cheapo gun doesn't evenly press on the direct center of the tube -- as the plunger pushes on the bags, one bag empties, and the other kind of just bunches up in the newly available space.

Which is pretty much exactly what happened when I pulled out an old bottle of Sika a while ago to test this theory -- I didn't make a ton of effort  to clean the bag openings or to ensure they both were flowing before I nozzle'd it.  Sure enough, basically the entire epoxy bag emptied first -- THEN all the hardener came out at the end.

Sika AnchorFix-2 is fine glue, but as a comparison the Powers AC100+ Gold bottle's tip is way easier to keep clean, and the bottle has an insert that keeps the plungers well centered.

Stay diligent.

Jorge Jordan wrote:

The failure at Stratocaster in Red Rock was not due to insufficient hole cleaning -- the glue never hardened.  From what I heard, a month or two later the removed bolt was still covered in goopy, unhardened sludge.

Disclaimer:  The following is all "best guess"  2nd hand info based on what info I was able to find about the incident, shared to help inform the community, not to point any fingers.

Couple things probably contributed to the glue not hardening:

1. The glue was expired. Check your expiration dates.  I've heard of people checking Home Depot shelves and finding 2+ yr expired glue.
2. The bottle of glue wasn't brand new (a partial bottle). Often times you don't end with an empty bottle -- so you cap it, and start with that tube on the next job.

The 2nd point is important.  If you've ever used a partial bottle, sometimes the tip can get clogged / obstructed / pinched, etc. etc.  Keep the tip clean when you cap it, and clean it when you put on a new nozzle.

As an example, I think Sika AnchorFix-2 is basically just two bags inside the tube (pardon the from memory illustrations, I don't have any bottles to tear apart at the moment)...

If one of the bags gets obstructed -- or if the plunger in a cheapo gun doesn't evenly press on the direct center of the tube -- as the plunger pushes on the bags, one bag empties, and the other kind of just bunches up in the newly available space.

Which is pretty much exactly what happened when I pulled out an old bottle of Sika a while ago to test this theory -- I didn't make a ton of effort  to clean the bag openings or to ensure they both were flowing before I nozzle'd it.  Sure enough, basically the entire epoxy bag emptied first -- THEN all the hardener came out at the end.

Sika AnchorFix-2 is fine glue, but as a comparison the Powers AC100+ Gold bottle's tip is way easier to keep clean, and the bottle has an insert that keeps the plungers well centered.

Stay diligent.

Cool. I asked him if there was any uncured epoxy and he dident recall seeing any which is why I was presuming hole cleaning was the problem.

This is another reason why I like the cartridge system--no need to worry about bags getting unevenly dispersed. I dont get why Hilti doesent switch to it, especially considering their RE-500V3 stuff is quadruple the price of other fine epoxy systems. Anyway, if you leave the mixing tip on when you're done with partly used containers, it helps keep the epoxy inside from getting old/ dry/ ect. That's the recommended way to do it by Simpson and as a result they say partly used containers are good for one year if you keep the tip on. You are right that the tip can get hardener and resin mixed together which clogs the tips. This seems to happen when you unscrew the tip, which is another reason to just leave the old tip on. However, if it happens I find using two different wood screws (to avoid cross-contamination) or similar picks to clean the openings well works good. Just be sure to remove all the hardened stuff or it can get stuck in the nozzle and create mixing problems.

20 kN wrote:

Well, all the bolts that I saw at Turtle Wall were Wave Bolts. Did those come before or after the failure? I also seem to recall all the installed bolts appeared to have been installed with concrete, not epoxy at Turtle Wall, although I couldent be sure.

The Fixe bolt failure happened before there were any wave bolts at Turtle Wall.  Also, the turtle wall failure really wasn't a bolt failure, it was a rock failure.  The bolt was placed about 4 inches above a hueco, and the entire top of the hueco crumbled and broke away.  There was however very little rock bonded to the glue on the bolt, so the hole wasn't cleaned well enough either (though that wasn't what led to the failure).

Stratocaster bolt after pull.  Photo from MP.com stratocaster page.

dnoB ekiM wrote:

Stratocaster bolt after pull.  Photo from MP.com stratocaster page.

Yep, looks like the glue didn't set up, but unfortunately, the photo is too out of focus to really see what's going on.

We use sika epoxies in my business from time to time, both the regular set and the fast set varieties depending on the application. I would suggest for bolting applications that the "quick set" version be used. You know in about  5 minutes if your mix was bad. 

Something else to ponder, we use these products in concrete that will be saturated shortly after application with a pretty high success rate. With sandstone wet/dry cycles might cause the rock to release from the glue if water penetration gets deep enough. 

My bolting days are behind me, and I don't plant baby trees anymore, BUT if I were bolting in sand stone I would consider long (8") stainless expansion anchors with epoxy in the bottom of the hole and at the surface behind the hanger as a sealant. 

Obviously, whatever area dependent guidelines are in place should be followed. JB

20 kN wrote:

Cool. I asked him if there was any uncured epoxy and he dident recall seeing any which is why I was presuming hole cleaning was the problem.

This is another reason why I like the cartridge system--no need to worry about bags getting unevenly dispersed. I dont get why Hilti doesent switch to it, especially considering their RE-500V3 stuff is quadruple the price of other fine epoxy systems. Anyway, if you leave the mixing tip on when you're done with partly used containers, it helps keep the epoxy inside from getting old/ dry/ ect. That's the recommended way to do it by Simpson and as a result they say partly used containers are good for one year if you keep the tip on. You are right that the tip can get hardener and resin mixed together which clogs the tips. This seems to happen when you unscrew the tip, which is another reason to just leave the old tip on. However, if it happens I find using two different wood screws (to avoid cross-contamination) or similar picks to clean the openings well works good. Just be sure to remove all the hardened stuff or it can get stuck in the nozzle and create mixing problems.

Excellent "figgers"! A very clear explanation on this potential failure mode. Per John's post above, quick-set epoxy could alert you to this issue, if it exists. Unfortunately, if the hole is poorly cleaned, it sounds like there's no reliable way to tell, is there?

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Excellent "figgers"! A very clear explanation on this potential failure mode. Per John's post above, quick-set epoxy could alert you to this issue, if it exists. Unfortunately, if the hole is poorly cleaned, it sounds like there's no reliable way to tell, is there?

It exists, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sika-10-1-fl-oz-AnchorFix-1-Anchoring-Adhesive-112729/202524387 And you'll know because any of it left around the hole, or a little squeezed out for inspection purposes will go off like a rocket. I wouldn't be afraid to fall on a bolt set with it after about 15 minutes. Something to think about anyway. JB

Edit to add: If you twist the bolt into the hole any remaining dust from drilling will mix into the epoxy instead of affecting adhesion. JB

John Barritt wrote:

...

Edit to add: If you twist the bolt into the hole any remaining dust from drilling will mix into the epoxy instead of affecting adhesion. JB

It takes quite a bit of twisting for this to work and is not an option for interference fit bolts like the titt or the wave bolt.

John Barritt wrote:

It exists, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sika-10-1-fl-oz-AnchorFix-1-Anchoring-Adhesive-112729/202524387 And you'll know because any of it left around the hole, or a little squeezed out for inspection purposes will go off like a rocket. I wouldn't be afraid to fall on a bolt set with it after about 15 minutes. Something to think about anyway. JB

Edit to add: If you twist the bolt into the hole any remaining dust from drilling will mix into the epoxy instead of affecting adhesion. JB

I guess my post wasn't as clear as I intended. I meant quick-set would alert you if a mixing issue exists in your particular set-up on that day. (i.e., if you have a mixing issue, you'd find out quickly by using quick-set.)

Ken Noyce wrote:

It takes quite a bit of twisting for this to work and is not an option for interference fit bolts like the titt or the wave bolt.

I defer to your expertise there, in our applications twisting rebar dowels or smooth sided anchors in holes before expansion is cheap insurance, perhaps twisting a screwdriver in the hole after epoxy injection might work. Just don't use your dad's good screwdriver. JB

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

I guess my post wasn't as clear as I intended. I meant quick-set would alert you if a mixing issue exists in your particular set-up on that day. (i.e., if you have a mixing issue, you'd find out quickly by using quick-set.)

Ohhhhhh........if a problem exists......... ;)

We had several pull in Bermuda. This was due to too short and thin bolts, combined with soft rock and using ampules didn't help. Those were Tortuga.

We switched to Jim's bolts, between 150 to 200 mm and 16mm wide (5/8). Plus we started using a pump with a mixing nozzle. Overall a dramatic improvement over the old method. 

That was about 7 years ago. Those 316 bolts probably should be replaced with new long titanium bolts that are more readily available now.

Anyone familiar with a glue that cures as white?